Effect on Gauls and Britons if no Rome

Let's say that Rome is strangled in the cradle. Perhaps it's Brennus, or Pyrrhus of Epirus, or anything pre-Hannibal. What effect does this have on Gaul? IOTL, the Averni nearly conquered Masallia, and would have without Roman interference. Could this happen ITTL? Might we see a Hellenized Gallic nation arise and expand north? With the resources of Gaul, how far could this state expand?

In Britain, will some type of urban civilization still arise? Might we see some conquerer unify some of the tribes in southern Britain?

What happens when the Germanic tribes expand westward? Might we see the Gauls flee to Italy and Hispania? Would the Germans still land in Britain?
 
IOTL, the Averni nearly conquered Masallia
You must be mistaken, Arverni mostly managed to establish their hegemony west of Rhone and they never really managed to curb down Volcae-dominated coasts (that were themselves took on peoples as Elysices) : aren't you confusing with Salyes and other Celto-Ligurian peoples?

Might we see a Hellenized Gallic nation arise and expand north
IInd century Gaul, at least for what matter Mediterranean and Central Gaul, were more or less importantly hellenized. It's particularily obvious in sites as Entremont (one of the capital of Salyes) in Provence, or Ensérune in Languedoc, but the hellenic influence probably went deeper, being probably one of the sources of the development of druidism IOTL.

Assuming Rome gets defeated in the IInd Punic War and remains, for now, an Italian secondary power (any earlier PoD more or less let us with a much more difficult task for describing changes in Gaul or Britain); and mostly depicting immediate changes for the IInd and early Ist century.

Arverni are likely to be unchallenged in the IInd century, with their archê and sphere of influence spawning between the Rhone and to Limousin as IOTL before Roman campaigns.
I doubt, however, that this hegemony would be really stable, at least in a first time, and would probably focus on keeping clients and allied peoples close enough, thanks to the wealth of Arverni lands. At best, I could see Arverni taking victoriously on Volcae, but I'd rather see an interventionist policy there, rather than clientelisation. Arverni seems to have focused on the coastline mostly in opposition to any contender there, rather than out of particular interest.
Still, Arverni are going to remain one of the most powerful peoples in Celtica.

Allobroges are likely, IMO, to form another regional power ITTL. They seems to have formed an archê of their own in Alpine and Rhodanian Gaul (the roman map of the region is a good hint, if probably reducing), up to Provence, and part IOTL of the anti-Roman coalition led by Arverni.

I'm not sure Aedui could efficiently rival these hegemonies, and likely wouldn't come to the same degree of dominance they did IOTL, thanks to Arverni and Allobroges power being curbed down and thanks to their alliance with Rome. Still their important strategical and commercial localisation would help them to remain independent and to form a secondary power of their own, with a whole network on the Seine basin (mostly as IOTL)

Now, let's remember that these hegemonies are still pretty much decentralized, and more along the model of complex chiefdoms at this point : the independence of tribal states, even if clientelized/vassalized/allied is to be taken in account.

Mediterranean Celtica is a bit of a problem, especially in the western-part : it's more or less assumed that you had some big troubles in the region in the wake of Punic Wars (Enserune being fortified, Pech Maho (Saiganthé?) collapsing, etc.) but it's not really clear who was involved and how deeply : it's possible that the destructions are partially due to Volcae, allies of Carthage, when taking over the region.

As for the eastern part, namely with the Salyes and other Celto-Ligurians (especially Cavares), I doubt they would be that able to take on Massalia even if they wanted so. Conversly, Massalia prooved unable to really take on their neighbours (that she used as auxiliaries from time to time), as hinted by Thelinè/Arleate falling outside their control.
It's to be noted, tough, that without Roman support, the Massaliote pressure on its hinterland would be significantly diminished.

The distinction between Celto-Ligurians and other Gallic peoples shouldn't be overestimated : the principal difference between, say Volcae and Cavares is a matter of local policies and influences (such as hellenization)

How these entities would evolve?
Well, in a first time, we could wonder if druidism would encounter the same decline it did IOTL in the IInd century BCE. I'd rather think not, at least not in the same proportions : a good part of late Independent Gaul history is dominated by the Roman influence : institutionally (rise of vergobrets), economically (gallic coins whom value based on denarii), culturally, etc.

That said, without Rome, you wouldn't have a vaacum and there's an open question about who would take the lead in Mediterranean. With the PoD I choose, the answer is obvious : Carthage.
Or rather, parts of Carthage, especially the most "imperialist" factions such as led by Barcids. I wouldn't expexct at the latest an Carthagian takeover of southern Gaul (would it be only because Barcid rise was unstable and IMO, had good chances to met an unexpected and sudden end), but the mercenarisation of peoples as Volcae by Carthagians would likely be a good replacement for the same militarisation due to Rome (albeit in a different manner) in southern Gaul.

It seems it was already happening tough, with the Celto-Ligurian dunastai, for instance, and the militarisation of the Salyes-led confederation.
It's possible that the attested demographic pressure of the late IIIrd/early IInd (partially due to natural growth, partially due to hinterland pressure) might have influed there as well, as much as foreign presence : the social need for safety, but as well a growing stratification and specialization of urban and peri-urban ensemble, both allowed and forced institutional changes (part of the reason for the militarisation of institutions in late independent Gaul might be the need to assert the social order).
It's still pretty much based, for what matter Celto-Ligurians, on a rough equivalence of power between various Celto-Ligyes entities, hence why Salyes-led, rather than Salyian confederation.

As for hinterland hegemonies, you have a similar situation, enough room for the development of strong cyclical chiefdoms as Arverni, altough I'd expect less political equalitarism and more of a roughly unified decentralized network (as between the Arverni oppida of Corent, Gergovia and Gondole, possibly forming sort of a meta-capital due to their closeness; or with the contracting yet growing oppidum of Bibractos for Aedui).

I wouldn't hold my breath for a punic influence akin to Roman one (most of Carthagian features north were essentially hellenized), but an institutional influence, making vergobrets turning more sophet-like rather than senatorial-like? That's a possibility, altough such influence would be really thinner than Rome.

Now, there's the special case of Cisalpine Gaul : Rome not being destroyed in all likeness, you'd see peoples allies with Carthagian during the Punic Wars, but probably left to themselves (a bit like the really vague and probably still-born Italian federation opposed to Rome). I doubt that Rome would take back the region any sooner (being more focused on the mess in southern Italy for a time), but at the very least, it's going to be closer to IOTL in this region than in any other part.

In Britain, will some type of urban civilization still arise?
Britain would be likely fairly unconcerned by the changes in Mediterranean, as long as the broad structures aren't damaged. So, I'd expect hill-fort network to be one step towards an original urbanisation, as oppida were in Gaul.
Safe from that, I don't see any good reason why Belgae wouldn't get expanded in Britain as IOTL. So, what happens in Britain is essentially tied to what happens in Northern Gaul.

You notice, maybe, that I didn't mentioned too much Belgica or Armorica : well, it's because there's not much to be said there. Eventually, they would be fairly untouched by the southern changes, and you'd see the appearance of hegemonies built on trade as Veneti or Aremoricani; and hegemonies built on military dominance as in Belgica.
I'd expect a similar evolution in Britain, at best, as these regions would be rather on the "recieving end", IMO.

Might we see some conquerer unify some of the tribes in southern Britain?
Probably not : political structuration of Britain seems to have been (altough it's really hard to proove) begun later than in Gaul (with the principalties of the Vth).

What happens when the Germanic tribes expand westward? Might we see the Gauls flee to Italy and Hispania? Would the Germans still land in Britain?
The distinction between Gauls and Germans in any pre-Caesarian consideration is mostly moot. Most of Germania proper was either Celtized to an important extent, if not Celtic (especially for Danubian and Upper Rhinish Germanias) : the "threat of Germans going to invade Gaul" is mostly, if not only entierly, Caesarian propaganda that rely on depicting Gaul as civilized, and Germans as brutish.
In fact, you didn't have that of difference between both banks of the Rhine, including linguistically (Ariovist is a celtic name, for exemple). The mess of people in Belgica points how much the difference can be irrelevant culturally and politically.

Anyway, without the destabilisation of Gallic policies by Rome, you won't have as much room for opportunist expeditions as Teutoni and Cimbrii (which were joined in a really large manner by Celts, and probably at least Celtized themselves), and probably the same waves of migrating groups you had in Gaul since the Vth century (such as Volcae imposed themselves in Languedoc during the Punic Wars).
 
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I forgot to mention the Celtic or Celtized entities peoples east of Rhine and north of Danube.

The absence if a Roman conquest and interventionism in Gaul could make the region stabler, at least relatively to what happened IOTL : namely, getting rid of the succion effect that allowed the Cimbric War, and henceforth the relative destabilization of Celtic polities in the late IInd century.

It's possible that Helvetii remains in modern Wruttemberg, at least partially managing the Suevian (Celto-Germanic) expension in Upper Rhineland, for exemple. We might witness a situation closer to what existed in Belgica (or rather see it more certainly than what might have existed IOTL in first place), meaning unmistakably celtic or celtized peoples, with some particularities.
While it could lead to important indirect changes in Gaul, being added-up to the direct changes, it would as well implies differences in caesarian-defined Germania.

I already mentioned the possibility fo Helvetii to make a better stand in Swabia, but the same could be said of people as Vendelici (especially since their decline is more or less attributed to the disorder in caesarian-defined Gaul in the Ist century), or Boioi in Central Europe, ending with a Celto-Germanic culture in southern Germania being more easily maintenable (the mentioned peoples are likely to form archêis of their own, probably relatively more militarized than in cesarian Gaul). The situation wouldn't be exactly peaceful, but probably closer to what happened in Gaul since the Vth, meaning more gradual.
For what matter Northern Germania, depending how much the population moves of the IInd century would play, but I think that the fusion of celtic and germanic elements that seem to have taken place IOTL would be more balanced in Lower Rhineland and Silesia/Saxony alike.

Could that mean we could see northern Germani people bypassing Belgica and Danubian lands, and going to Britain? It's technically doable, and was done by Belgian or Celto-Germanic peoples IOTL, but I'd rather see a similar happenance than this historical migration, rather than a blunt germanization of the region (we could see Lower Rhineish Celto-Germanic people participating to this).
 
So sort of a spectrum as one went from, say, OTL Bordeaux and headed northeast towards OTL Kaliningrad? Gradually one would see fewer celtic influences and more Germanic influence on the culture of the region?

Should a period of overpopulation and harsher harvests overtake Scandinavia, might we see a sort of alt-French that sounds similar to what the Belgica spoke?
 
So sort of a spectrum as one went from, say, OTL Bordeaux and headed northeast towards OTL Kaliningrad?
Not this much on North-East (its probable limits would be Sillesian highlands, IMO), and maybe significantly more on South-West and South-East (in the Iberian peninsula and Balkanic peninsula)
The use of "spectrum" is rather well chosen on this regard, as you didn't have ONE celtic culture in this continuum (Celto-Iberians, Celto-Germanians, Celto-Illyrians, etc.)

That said, the Celtic continuity shouldn't overshadow real political differences : Gallic polities seems to have been early and more deeply structurated than, say, in Britain or Central Germania, altough it could be a matter of lack of sources and archeolgical data.

Gradually one would see fewer celtic influences and more Germanic influence on the culture of the region?
It's a good initial model, while it's not not that systematical in Balkans for instance : the real deal is how to define Germanic culture on this regard and what make it different (language is certainly one, but doesn't really show in material culture), and how much Celtic influence couldn't end up being more or less germanized, or even comng from further lands (as hinted by the Gundestrup Cauldron, which have definitive celtic features but is contradictory with the use of norther Gallic and Celto-Germans peoples to avoid anthropomorphic representation, while more akin to Celto-Balkanic influences)

I'd rather think in matter of an original cultural mix-up, as well as a "more Germanic/Celtic, less Germanic/Celtic scale" scale ( which can be misleading, if useful in a contextualized manner.)
For exemple, Baltic peoples being at the recieving end of a Celtic/Celtized Central European network, absorbating several of their various (and conflicting) influence trough germanizing them, and vice-versa.

Again, not to say you didn't have any difference between Celts and Germans, but you had IOTL a lot of gradual and multually influencing features (and capacities of absorbtion from both cltures), which makes a cut down definition hard to maintain in a non-cesarian TL.

Should a period of overpopulation and harsher harvests overtake Scandinavia
Which tends to be rare for ancient and medieval world : most of migration and raids from Scandinavia and Baltica (like in the Ist BC or Vth AC) seems to have more to do with social instability than overpopulation (even if it could play a non-decisive role).

might we see a sort of alt-French that sounds similar to what the Belgica spoke?
As far as the main consensus goes, Belgians probably spoke (a?) Gaulish language akin to southern Gallic peoples' speeches.

That said, proponents of the North-West Block theory may disagree there, and while I think the theory is more or less based on a leap of faith (I'm mostly pointing this to be on the safe side) for what matter the Ist century BC, you have good arguments for a significant difference for the altantic shores of Belgica and Lower Rhine.
 

Artaxerxes

Banned
IInd century Gaul, at least for what matter Mediterranean and Central Gaul, were more or less importantly hellenized. It's particularily obvious in sites as Entremont (one of the capital of Salyes) in Provence, or Ensérune in Languedoc, but the hellenic influence probably went deeper, being probably one of the sources of the development of druidism IOTL.

I'll have to ask for citation on the Druidism part, one of Druidisms (at least in Ireland) most striking similarities is to Vedic and theres postulation that much of Celtic culture was also very similar with distinct castes.

If we're looking at Pythagoras theory of reincarnation then its entirely possible that this was actually an influence on him rather than him on the Celts.

Theres also a lot of debate over just what is Celtic and how to define it, as well as the baggage that comes from 18th and 19th centuries poor research and nationalism that colours our perception of what Celtic is and its over-emphasis on the superiority of Roman and Greek culture as well as the more modern ideas of colonialism and invasion.

Europe is also mostly Indo-European so many of the religions share features and beliefs, further muddied by our sources of the era trying to fit the Celtic and Germanic world view into Roman and Greek culture rather than standing further back and explaining the culture by itself.


In terms of development, Britains hill forts were in decline by the first century BC, and there were proto-towns in the south east and extensive cross channel trade and influence. Some also say that there is evidence of parts of Britain speaking Germanic by this date.

The main problem with UK is it's small population and it's east/west split and the marginality of much of its terrain especially as you go further north and east. It's not conducive to town living in those areas and wouldn't be for some time. The island was mostly rural in economy and would revert back to that at the end of the Roman period in a massive decline in its economy if not its population.


Odds are good you will eventually see small kingdoms based on the tribal areas encountered by the Romans in the first Century, but not necessarily those tribes if that makes sense, or at least by the names they go by in the Roman period.
 

Faeelin

Banned
In terms of development, Britains hill forts were in decline by the first century BC, and there were proto-towns in the south east and extensive cross channel trade and influence. Some also say that there is evidence of parts of Britain speaking Germanic by this date.

I've always wondered: how do the towns of Gaul and pre-Roman Britain compare to 8th century Gaul? I.e., are they actual urban centers as we'd consider them, or is it still too soon to call them that?

Second, without Roman control over Gaul and hegemony over the Mediterranean, is there enough trade to lead to the rise of towns in Britain?
 
I'll have to ask for citation on the Druidism part, one of Druidisms (at least in Ireland) most striking similarities is to Vedic and theres postulation that much of Celtic culture was also very similar with distinct castes.
I wouldn't quote all of it, but L'univers spirituel des Gaulois : Art, religion et philosophie by Jean-Louis Brunaux is a really advisable reading there.

But eventually, I think you're confusing influence on a dynamic culture onto another, which is my point; and a non-dynamic culture being influenced/tributary from a dynamic one, which is not but that you apparently believe is : having Druidism having one of its sources on the hellenic influence is vastly different.

As the the Indo-European background : certainly, but you're giving it too much importance IMO (a bit like people seeing a clear, almost unaltered IE influence on the tripartite social division of medieval Europe), and discarding the original development of Celtic religious/magical institutions (for exemple, the struggles betwen vates, bards and druids for domination over it aren't exactly something written down in Vedic texts, or hellenic texts for what it matters.)

I'd point, eventually, that taking Ireland as an exemple on the devellopment of Druidism is not exactly relevant : we could as well point at medival Christianity to study the origins of Christianism.
Druidism as a religious/philosophical institution, seems to have emerged in Vth century Gaul, and then expanding over a part of the Celtic world, namely Britain and Ireland (it's not clear or not if it managed to be a dominant feature or not among Celtiberians, as it never really appears as such, or rather not with the same names or words. It seems you might have some transmission tough), so we have to look at late Halstatt/early Latenian Gaul to understand what changed.

Eventually, not only Druidism as a religious/philosophical feature, but as well appearance of public religious sites, and a material culture that's changing (at least partially) according some known (if incompletly) concepts.

If we're looking at Pythagoras theory of reincarnation then its entirely possible that this was actually an influence on him rather than him on the Celts.
Actually, most of the influence I'm talking about is mostly about conceptions of the world, for instance the focus on geometry and mathematics/numerology that made its way into Gallic art, not just reincarnation (which is, amusingly, the part of druidism which is not really attested in material culture, or even that well on litterary sources).

For what matter reincarnation, I'm a bit puzzled there : you insisted that IE background explained similarities above, but there you're explaining that there was an influence, only the other way around. You're dismissing too easily Greek traditions of reincarnation or quasi-reincarnation such as Orphism or other pre-socratics as Pherecydes.
Pythagore and his immediate disciples didn't have any contact, known at least, with Druids or Celtic scholars, but where at contact with these, especially Orphism that is said to have been relatively well rooted in Asia.
Europe is also mostly Indo-European so many of the religions share features and beliefs, further muddied by our sources of the era trying to fit the Celtic and Germanic world view into Roman and Greek culture rather than standing further back and explaining the culture by itself.
The problem is that it takes for granted that Celtic or Germanic cultures didn't much evolved past the IE core beliefs, didn't know whole set of institutional build-up and collapses, and minorize that European and Mediterranean cultures were increasingly in contact by the archaic period.
"Explaining the culture by itself" can turn pretty much as easily than "Explaining the culture by others" into a nationalist/culturalist explanation.

Anyway, at this point, IE core beliefs are more of a ancient cultural background, than the societal organisation it was millenia ago as it was for Persians, Italians, Greeks, etc.
A good part of similarities were reinforced by contacts (such as Celtic influence over some Germanic rites and naming), like it happened with Greeks (the capacity of Greek to understand Barbarians, even if really incomplete and biased) is essentially coming from placating their concept on these (such as the use of archê and dunastai for Gallic entities, instead of say politeis or tyrannes)

In terms of development, Britains hill forts were in decline by the first century BC, and there were proto-towns in the south east and extensive cross channel trade and influence.
Most of what I have on this regard, points that hillfort in Britain remained an important social organisation until the Roman conquest, but that it mostly matters with southern and central Britain.

As for the distinction betwen British oppida and hill-forts, I don't think it was as radical you make it : while there's no much direct relationship between these in southern Britain (altough it's much less clear elsewhere, or even in parts of this region), British oppida doesn't seem as structurated or politically prevalent it was in continental Gaul.

It's worth noting, furthermore, that this development happens in the rough same time that Roman presence is attested, hinting at best to a reaction. ITTL, without this, you could end up with a similar evolution (especially, IMO, in places where continental presence is tought), but maybe not as clear-cut.

Some also say that there is evidence of parts of Britain speaking Germanic by this date.
Most say, tough, there's no much evidence for that : the consensus is that we're talking of a (more or less blur) distinction betwen Brythonic peoples of the hinterland, and more or less Celto-Germanized peoples on the East. Arguably Galli and Germani tended to be used interchangably.
The main problem with UK is it's small population and it's east/west split and the marginality of much of its terrain especially as you go further north and east. It's not conducive to town living in those areas and wouldn't be for some time. The island was mostly rural in economy and would revert back to that at the end of the Roman period in a massive decline in its economy if not its population.

Odds are good you will eventually see small kingdoms based on the tribal areas encountered by the Romans in the first Century, but not necessarily those tribes if that makes sense, or at least by the names they go by in the Roman period.
I'd tend to agree : the troubles over continental Celtic peoples or hegemonies partially created trough Roman interventionism annd expansionism wouldn't be as problematic than IOTL as I proposed above, or rather wouldn't lead to the same presence patterns on the continent, and henceforth on Britain.
That said, I think it would be mostly appliable to the regions that, IOTL, are said to have beens settled by Belgae (and possibly, ITTL, differently by Belgae/Celto-Germans), while the rough South-West wouldn't be that concerned at first (I don't see a good reason to butterfly away Venetic maritime influence and the relation with Dumnoians, for instance).
 
I've always wondered: how do the towns of Gaul and pre-Roman Britain compare to 8th century Gaul? I.e., are they actual urban centers as we'd consider them, or is it still too soon to call them that?
It's a bit complex, as we tend to use oppida to name various proto-urban or urban entities, and the tend to marvel when it's not that fitting.
For instance, Lattara (IInd century view) wasn't an oppidum but an unmistakably urban center. Glanon is an ancient town which is called oppidum, but not that distinct from other mediterranean Celtic places as Ambrussum or Ensérune : that they evolved as Roman cities or towns, while most of continental oppida were abandoned (as what happened with Bibractos) hints at some difference.

Hinterland oppida in Gaul are a bit more classical, but the name covers various realities : between Bibracte and Corent from one hand that provide with exemples of urbanism and monumentality, you have a various array of smaller oppida without much distinction (including place Caesar called castella)

For what matter VIIIth century BC Gaul, it's more or less clear-cut : you didn't have much urban or proto-urban development. You did have social and habitat gathering, but not that really differenciating socially. Until the late Haltsatt, most of the power (including political) seems to have resided in rural demesnes.

Second, without Roman control over Gaul and hegemony over the Mediterranean, is there enough trade to lead to the rise of towns in Britain?
You'd probably have as much as you did trough the Carthagian, Etruscean, Campanian, Greek trades. If something, the absence of Rome in Gaul might make these trade networks stabler in the IInd and Ist century BCE.
That said, the devellopment would be significantly slower than in the continent, and partially influenced trough continental features (as it seems to have happened IOTL).
 

Artaxerxes

Banned
I've always wondered: how do the towns of Gaul and pre-Roman Britain compare to 8th century Gaul? I.e., are they actual urban centers as we'd consider them, or is it still too soon to call them that?

Second, without Roman control over Gaul and hegemony over the Mediterranean, is there enough trade to lead to the rise of towns in Britain?


Gaul had some urban centres but Britain really didn't have that many, and theres a wide variation in styles.

Trade before the Romans is mostly long distance, small hops. So resources can go miles but it goes through several different areas before it gets to the destination. Essentially Britain gets plugged into a long distance network and trade flourishes, seeming to give out raw materials in return for prestige goods and very good pottery (though good manufacturers of this emerge in Britain). Theres a fair bit of trade in the Roman period but I'd say it was very artificially driven and ultimately led to problems when the Empire collapses. Theres just not enough markets for what the British isles produce for the sole reason of trade until the population and amount of craftsmen drastically improves.



I wouldn't quote all of it, but L'univers spirituel des Gaulois : Art, religion et philosophie by Jean-Louis Brunaux is a really advisable reading there.

I'll see if I can find a copy in English.

I'd point, eventually, that taking Ireland as an exemple on the devellopment of Druidism is not exactly relevant : we could as well point at medival Christianity to study the origins of Christianism.
Druidism as a religious/philosophical institution, seems to have emerged in Vth century Gaul, and then expanding over a part of the Celtic world, namely Britain and Ireland (it's not clear or not if it managed to be a dominant feature or not among Celtiberians, as it never really appears as such, or rather not with the same names or words. It seems you might have some transmission tough), so we have to look at late Halstatt/early Latenian Gaul to understand what changed.

Sadly Ireland and Wales is our best idea of what "Celtic" looks like, its not the best source but most of what we have is supposedly based on 5th Century or earlier works copied down much later. Its not much but it does help. I will admit there also likely to be vast regional differences between Ireland/Britain and Gaul/Spain down to the influence of Greece and Rome.

That is the problem with so much of our knowledge of this period, its just so hard to get clear ideas of what the world was like culturally outside of the major Greek and Roman sources. We have some ideas archaeologically but its hard to get many things from that alone.



Most of what I have on this regard, points that hillfort in Britain remained an important social organisation until the Roman conquest, but that it mostly matters with southern and central Britain.

As for the distinction betwen British oppida and hill-forts, I don't think it was as radical you make it : while there's no much direct relationship between these in southern Britain (altough it's much less clear elsewhere, or even in parts of this region), British oppida doesn't seem as structurated or politically prevalent it was in continental Gaul.

It's worth noting, furthermore, that this development happens in the rough same time that Roman presence is attested, hinting at best to a reaction. ITTL, without this, you could end up with a similar evolution (especially, IMO, in places where continental presence is tought), but maybe not as clear-cut.

Most of what I've read has hill-forts fall out of favour by around 100 BC in the SE with some usage of them in the North, some would come back into use around the period of the Roman invasion suggesting they were reused mostly for the purpose of resistance before going dormant again until later in the Roman period.



Most say, tough, there's no much evidence for that : the consensus is that we're talking of a (more or less blur) distinction betwen Brythonic peoples of the hinterland, and more or less Celto-Germanized peoples on the East. Arguably Galli and Germani tended to be used interchangably.

Yes, theres a very clear distinction in the sources between Germanic and Celtic but thats not so much reflected in archaeology. Its also going to be interesting seeing what happens with the Atlantic theory of Celtic origins, whether that has legs or not.
 
I'll see if I can find a copy in English.
I doubt it : it's fairly recent, and let's face it, historical works in French rarely gets translated if not outright impossible to ignore it, and even there...Apart from some papers (this one about urbanization in early Iron Age southern Gaul, for instance), I'm not sure Dominique Garcia got that translated (I'm almost certain that vulgarizing works of Christian Goudineau didn't).
For what matter most works on Gallic archeology and history (or a good part of non-classical Antiquity and early Middle Ages), you'd probably be better off learning French : I know few ever follow my advice on this for...reasons, but if you're interested on these matters, you'd have to eventually.

Sadly Ireland and Wales is our best idea of what "Celtic" looks like, its not the best source but most of what we have is supposedly based on 5th Century or earlier works copied down much later. Its not much but it does help.
I disagree : Gallic archeology really blossoms since three decades, and provided a LOT of intepretative data that put the litterary sources in a new light. We probably know ten times more about independent Gaul we did in the 70's, to say the least. There's limitations, but it's really a stratch to me to say that late Antiquity and early Medieval Ireland is much better known than late Independent Gaul.
There's rarely a couple of years without important thesis or discoveries like this one, or this one

I will admit there also likely to be vast regional differences between Ireland/Britain and Gaul/Spain down to the influence of Greece and Rome.
The emergence of gallic chiefdoms and centers seems to be partially due to Phocean and Etruscean influence (as for Lattara, aformentioned), but inner dynamics and difference between the various Celtic cultures shouldn't be underestimated : these dynamics partially explain (while in relation with the overall world) the fall of Halstattian period if we trust the archeological remains (basically, heroic tumuli with a great stratification declining in favour of less stratified graves).

A bit like the rise of Rome, as an Italic city compared to other Italic peoples, isn't only a matter of hellenistic and etruscean influence.

We have some ideas archaeologically but its hard to get many things from that alone.
It's hard, but not that much : most of archeological interpretation tends to be corrobated by either sources or other archeological finds (and when you know the propension of archeological theories to get abandoned because, well it doesn't fit finds...). For instance, the rise of public rites happening in the same time as an artistic geometric-abstract tendency.
It's rather interpretative than speculative, and while it's just a model, so far it's working.

That the arverni "meta-capital" of Corent/Gergovia/Gondole hints at a relatively unified (if original) urbanism (and henceforth political power) is a matter of interpretation, which doesn't exactly let much more alternative so far.

Most of what I've read has hill-forts fall out of favour by around 100 BC in the SE with some usage of them in the North, some would come back into use around the period of the Roman invasion suggesting they were reused mostly for the purpose of resistance before going dormant again until later in the Roman period.
South-East England is a special case, due to continental influence and possibly settlement, with a good part of these peoples being considered akin to Belgians or other Celts. I'm not sure how much Britton inner dynamics were that much at work; what I went points that western and northern hill-forts remained more or less in use, even if some get "oppidumized" in the Ist century, and the changes in these regions are more due to a continental influence (or takeover, even if it's mostly speculative in most cases).

That said, hill fortification re-used in period of crisis is a constant, even in the continent (as pointed by use of Iron Age habitats in late Antiquity in mediterranean gaul).

Yes, theres a very clear distinction in the sources between Germanic and Celtic but thats not so much reflected in archaeology.
Even in contemporary sources it's not much clear : Poseidonios mentions that Germani (which is an exonym , probably meaning "related" in Gallic speeches) and Celts aren't that different; and Suebi are sometimes called Celts in the Ist or IInd century (as Vandals).

The distinction is, at least for classical antiquity, mostly political, and while not totally irrelevant should be used cautiouslt (hence why I used Celto-Germans for Rhineland and northern Danubi peoples, even if it's a bit uneasy).
 

Artaxerxes

Banned
I disagree : Gallic archeology really blossoms since three decades, and provided a LOT of intepretative data that put the litterary sources in a new light. We probably know ten times more about independent Gaul we did in the 70's, to say the least. There's limitations, but it's really a stratch to me to say that late Antiquity and early Medieval Ireland is much better known than late Independent Gaul.
There's rarely a couple of years without important thesis or discoveries like this one, or this one

I can rarely find much about Gaul sadly, much of my knowledge comes from Cunliffe, Beresford-Ellis or books like this (with massive pinches of salt)

I know as well much of the assumed knowledge of Britain right from pre-Roman to the Anglo-Saxons has been questioned since the 70's and its good to know the same is true for Gaul.


The emergence of gallic chiefdoms and centers seems to be partially due to Phocean and Etruscean influence (as for Lattara, aformentioned), but inner dynamics and difference between the various Celtic cultures shouldn't be underestimated : these dynamics partially explain (while in relation with the overall world) the fall of Halstattian period if we trust the archeological remains (basically, heroic tumuli with a great stratification declining in favour of less stratified graves).

A bit like the rise of Rome, as an Italic city compared to other Italic peoples, isn't only a matter of hellenistic and etruscean influence.

Agreed on that, in my post above I mention many small hops and there is a tendency to see 'Celtic' Europe as one big whole which is a trap of modernity (although to be fair it could be said the ancient sources did the same) and being used to the idea of nation states and ethnicity, a lot of modern thought and initial investigation into history was coloured by the rise of nation-states after all.
 
I can rarely find much about Gaul sadly, much of my knowledge comes from Cunliffe, Beresford-Ellis or books like this (with massive pinches of salt)
Well, the last book isn't bad, but it's not really that surprising : it's known since the 70's/80's that behind almost each roman road, or roman villa, you do have a Gallic work.
Heck, it was known in the 30's.

But I think, if I understand the point well (which might not be the case), that Robb is putting too much credence to some "secular" (sorry for the anachronism) engineeering, while ke know that peoples as druids tended to be scholars versed into mathematics and geometry, whom influence rise in the same time as the first "public" works which were public sanctuaries.
Not to explain litterally everything with magne...err, druids; but dismissing their influence on Gallic society seems weird ; urbanism and related works depends from a political power on which we know that druids were associated with until their, relative, decline in the late IInd/early Ist.
 

Artaxerxes

Banned
Well, the last book isn't bad, but it's not really that surprising : it's known since the 70's/80's that behind almost each roman road, or roman villa, you do have a Gallic work.
Heck, it was known in the 30's.

But I think, if I understand the point well (which might not be the case), that Robb is putting too much credence to some "secular" (sorry for the anachronism) engineeering, while ke know that peoples as druids tended to be scholars versed into mathematics and geometry, whom influence rise in the same time as the first "public" works which were public sanctuaries.
Not to explain litterally everything with magne...err, druids; but dismissing their influence on Gallic society seems weird ; urbanism and related works depends from a political power on which we know that druids were associated with until their, relative, decline in the late IInd/early Ist.

He goes into the religious aspect a fair bit, touching on the numerology aspects you mention. Particularly shrine building dimensions and road orientations based on geometry.
 
As it might be hard to follow a list of names and peoples without too much idea where they were, here's a crude and speculative map of IInd century Gaul (I'm not comfortable enough with the situation in Belgica to make a try there for now).

v1KZMt8.png


From South-East to North-West.

- Pale Yellow : Massalia. The city is essentially stuck on the coast, safe from some fortified or sure place on the immediate hinterland.
- Pale Purple : Salyes-led confederation
- Neon Green : Voconces
- Pale Brown : Cavares hegemony
- Myrtilla : Volcae Arecomices and Tectosages. Their relation isn't really known, but you might have some bilateral relation or a lesser distinction around Montlaurès and Narbo.
- Dark Yellow : Alloborges hegemony
- Pale Green : Arverni hegemony. It include Arverni territory proper, some tightly held peoples, the mass of clients in the south and eastern borders, and allies on the west and north (possibly up to Carnutes)
- Neon Blue : Sequani
- Purple : Aedui hegemony
- Grey Blue : Senones hegemony (it's not clear if the part eastward was under their influence or part of their territory)
- Dark Purple : Bituriges. Once powerful, but more or less under Arverni influence while not client.
- Brown : Pictones
- Pale Light Yellow : Carnutes. Maybe allies or under influence of Arverni. Hard to say. Maybe not.
- Blue : Veneti hegemony
- Dark Green : Armorican, possibly a loose alliance of peoples.

You notice the importance of Arverni, but also they're more under a mediterranean tropism, than really that interested on their northern neighbours, which explain their interest on the provencal region (being roped into this by Allobroges, that were roped into this by Voconces, that were roped into this by Salyes).
 
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