I know that from biologicall POV this scenario is borderline ASB, but still barely on non-ASB territory. Say that on 12 October 1537 Queen Jane Seymour gave birth to twins: son named Edward (more or less OTL Eddie VI) and daughter, (named Jane, after mother?) , then dies like IOTL. We are talking about person, that never existed, so I need to describe her briefly-say she's cautious, intelligent and, unlike brother, religiously indifferent. Henry VIII would surely put her in succession line above Mary and Elizabeth, who'll still be bastardised, but, untill Edward's last days, there would be no great changes compared to OTL. Edward, having full sister of unquestionable legitimacy would make her his heiress, and propably there would be strong pressure to find her proper husband. So no way for Jane Gray on the throne. Mary would find Jane legitimate, but still would claim the throne, being older. How should our 'Cautious Jane' behave in such situation?
Edward VI has twin sister
- Thread starter Jan Olbracht
- Start date
Mary doesn't have a leg to stand on. The still very Protestant elite will back princess Jane to the hilt, and find a suitably Protestant husband for her.
Without the support of her father's will Mary will be unable to try to take the Crown. She was forced to accept who Jane came before her in the line of succession and the Parlament confirmed that...
Jane Grey has a longer and hopefully happier life.
Mary should leave the country, being one down in the succession and Edward becoming a fanatic, it might be seen as safer. Perfect thing to set off a civil war a generation latter when Mary spawn comes to remove an unpopular Jane spawn.
Your Jane sounds a lot like Liz the first, so a lot of patterns from her go on as otl. But as soon as Jane has a son, there is pressure to abdicate Mary Queen of Scots style, even if Jane is doing everything right. If she has daughters, then there is a chance for civil war or said girl marrying her cousin by older sister Mary, Habsburg style, to keep it in the family and avoid civil war.
Liz has a more boring life. Maybe John Dudley, still regent, sets her up with his son Robert. They liked each other otl.
Mary should leave the country, being one down in the succession and Edward becoming a fanatic, it might be seen as safer. Perfect thing to set off a civil war a generation latter when Mary spawn comes to remove an unpopular Jane spawn.
Your Jane sounds a lot like Liz the first, so a lot of patterns from her go on as otl. But as soon as Jane has a son, there is pressure to abdicate Mary Queen of Scots style, even if Jane is doing everything right. If she has daughters, then there is a chance for civil war or said girl marrying her cousin by older sister Mary, Habsburg style, to keep it in the family and avoid civil war.
Liz has a more boring life. Maybe John Dudley, still regent, sets her up with his son Robert. They liked each other otl.
If Edward wants to secure throne for his twin sister, letting Mary to marry abroad would not be wise decision.
Likely Mary will be sent in the Tower before Edward's death and will die here for "natural causes" (either killed by her bad health or quietly poisoned).
Playing a little with some matches
Elizabeth - Robert Dudley
Jane Grey - Henry Herbert (OTL first husband of Catherine)
Guilford Dudley - Amy Robsat (Robert OTL wife, she was an heiress)
Katherine Grey - Edward Seymour (her OTL second husband)
Katherine Dudley - Henry Hastings (her OTL husband)
Playing a little with some matches
Elizabeth - Robert Dudley
Jane Grey - Henry Herbert (OTL first husband of Catherine)
Guilford Dudley - Amy Robsat (Robert OTL wife, she was an heiress)
Katherine Grey - Edward Seymour (her OTL second husband)
Katherine Dudley - Henry Hastings (her OTL husband)
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And Mary, knowing that and being good at self preservation, would be wise to flee.
Henry's will be as in otl - Edward, any son by Catherine Parr, the Princess Jane, any daughter's by Catherine Parr, Mary, Elizabeth - the descendants of Frances Brandon, the descendants of Eleanor Brandon.
The Dudley's marriages were in part aristocratic alliances, in part the Suffolk's allying themselves with Dudley (the most powerful man in the realm) - in these circumstances they may or may not happen - marriage to Princess Jane is beyond Dudley's reach at this point - the Grey girls are likely to be co-heirs to their parents so an easy way of endowing their future husbands - I can see both Jane and Catherine's betrothals going ahead.
As to Elizabeth and Robert Dudley - not a chance - he married Amy in 1550 and initially it was a love match - at that point the King was likely to live and have heirs.
The King's sister Jane is going to be overwhelmed by foreign offers long before her brother's death.
I would suspect - if matches went ahead - Jane Grey to Guildford Dudley, Katherine Grey to Henry Herbert (the Suffolks had tried to marry her to Seymour's heir who she eventually married before the fall of the Seymours they had a narrow escape from being involved in the fall which in part motivated their attempts to curry favour with Dudley) as in OTL.
For the after effects - Mary is the wild card in all this - common justice will say to her and much of Catholic Europe that she is her father's eldest surviving daughter and by rights should succeed - but in English law the King's only legitimate daughter is Jane - Mary suddenly after years in the background now might be able with Spanish and English Catholic support have the chance to lead a rebellion in her name - plenty will view her as the rightful heir (Edward religious policies were not universally popular and Jane will be seen as a continuation of that) - in OTL Dudley failed to get Mary in custody before he attempted to carry out the King's will in proclaiming Jane and it cost him everything. In these circumstances it is quite likely he will again fail to contain Mary. Now the council in this TL might be stronger in its support for our Queen Jane and that might be enough to defeat Mary.
The Dudley's marriages were in part aristocratic alliances, in part the Suffolk's allying themselves with Dudley (the most powerful man in the realm) - in these circumstances they may or may not happen - marriage to Princess Jane is beyond Dudley's reach at this point - the Grey girls are likely to be co-heirs to their parents so an easy way of endowing their future husbands - I can see both Jane and Catherine's betrothals going ahead.
As to Elizabeth and Robert Dudley - not a chance - he married Amy in 1550 and initially it was a love match - at that point the King was likely to live and have heirs.
The King's sister Jane is going to be overwhelmed by foreign offers long before her brother's death.
I would suspect - if matches went ahead - Jane Grey to Guildford Dudley, Katherine Grey to Henry Herbert (the Suffolks had tried to marry her to Seymour's heir who she eventually married before the fall of the Seymours they had a narrow escape from being involved in the fall which in part motivated their attempts to curry favour with Dudley) as in OTL.
For the after effects - Mary is the wild card in all this - common justice will say to her and much of Catholic Europe that she is her father's eldest surviving daughter and by rights should succeed - but in English law the King's only legitimate daughter is Jane - Mary suddenly after years in the background now might be able with Spanish and English Catholic support have the chance to lead a rebellion in her name - plenty will view her as the rightful heir (Edward religious policies were not universally popular and Jane will be seen as a continuation of that) - in OTL Dudley failed to get Mary in custody before he attempted to carry out the King's will in proclaiming Jane and it cost him everything. In these circumstances it is quite likely he will again fail to contain Mary. Now the council in this TL might be stronger in its support for our Queen Jane and that might be enough to defeat Mary.
As I've mentioned, Jane Tudor is cautious and do not seek for troubles, so what about option of Jane recognizing her older sister's right to the throne and not trying to take it herself?
She might even go Catholic if it looks some circumstance will make Mary Queen. She has fewer impediments politically and could guarantee her succession over the "bastard" Elizabeth and cautiously avoid civil disorder/war.
What would you say about Jane's marriage to Edward Courtenay during Mary's reign?
A bad, incautious move, out of character.
She would be screwed in every sense of the word.
Best you can say for it is it may not be as well received by Mary as Katherine Grey/Edward Seymour otl was received by Elizabeth. If she's Queen it's likely she's shortened his reign.
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If Jane is going to marry during Mary's rule, wouldn't Philip Habsburg insist for her marriage with his Austrian cousin?
Given Philip's relationship with england I think that Edward would turn him down fast, but if she's alive during Mary's reign, then yes, she gets packed away to some Good and Proper Catholic Husband.
What happens to Elizabeth in this scenario?
What happens to Elizabeth in this scenario?
With Mary calling the shots, she has an alternative to Anne Bolyen spawn that everyone agrees is legit. Liz gets free rent and accomadations in the Tower or a European tour. With Phillip around he tries to make sure said husband is one that can seduce Jane, figuratively and literally. She is not packed away, she is treated as heiress.
I wondered recently about adding Jane Tudor into Vasa-wank I have in mind but with little modification-how likely is marriage between Jane and Eric XIV or John III of Sweden if Edward VI in addition to having another sister also lives longer?
Does Edward still have no kids? And does he outlive Mary? Which would make who gets the crown a toss-up between Janey and the is-she-isn't-she Liz Tudor. What about a marriage between Liz and Erik, while Jane is engaged to the duke of Finland, but before the marriage goes through, her brother and elder half-sister die. While Liz is already in Stockholm. I'm not sure how the English will react to their new queen being married to a foreigner (especially if she's married and living in Sweden at the time she succeeds, and a spinster Liz is still in England)