Edward the Black Prince marries earlier

VVD0D95

Banned
So, there've been a lot of threads on what happens if the Black Prince survives etc. But I've never really seen a thread on what if he'd made a different marriage. Otl he married Joan of Kent, and had two children, but there were proposals of marriage put out before then when he was a teenager that never went through.

Possible candidates I can think of:

Blanche of Navarre (b.1331) otl second wife of Philippe VI, could be a good match and secure England's frontier in Gascony.

Elisabeth or Agnes of Bavaria (b.1329) and (1335) respectively./ I believe Edward was considering an alliance with their father Louis so that could be part of this.

Are there any other Princesses who could get the nod?

What consequences could there be from Ned marrying earlier?

@CaptainShadow @material_boy @Kellan Sullivan @Jonathan @isabella @Emperor Constantine @The Professor @Tyler96
 
Are there any other Princesses who could get the nod?
I remember someone on this forum once suggesting Eleanor of Portugal (b. 1328), she slightly older but not too old, and this could save her from her OTL fate. She married Peter of Aragon in 1347 and died from the Black Death only a year after.
 

VVD0D95

Banned
I remember someone on this forum once suggesting Eleanor of Portugal (b. 1328), she slightly older but not too old, and this could save her from her OTL fate. She married Peter of Aragon in 1347 and died from the Black Death only a year after.
Ahh yeah I do remember thinking she could make a good candidate and would give England her alliance with Portugal a fair few decades early
 
Blanche of Navarre (b.1331) otl second wife of Philippe VI, could be a good match and secure England's frontier in Gascony.
I am always very supportive of more English-Navarrese matches in this era, butI am not sure I can see Charles the Bad agreeing to such a binding English alliance. Pursuing his own claim to the French throne depended in large part on playing the Plantagenets and Valois.

I like the Brabant match that @CaptainShadow proposed, though it may run into the ground getting papal dispensation given French control of the pope at this time.

Eleanor of Portugal would be good for producing heirs earlier, but Portugal doesn't really bring much to the war. (Then again, the English didn't really need help kicking the French's ass at this stage.)

If I was going to pick between them, I'd go with Portugal.
 

VVD0D95

Banned
I am always very supportive of more English-Navarrese matches in this era, butI am not sure I can see Charles the Bad agreeing to such a binding English alliance. Pursuing his own claim to the French throne depended in large part on playing the Plantagenets and Valois.

I like the Brabant match that @CaptainShadow proposed, though it may run into the ground getting papal dispensation given French control of the pope at this time.

Eleanor of Portugal would be good for producing heirs earlier, but Portugal doesn't really bring much to the war. (Then again, the English didn't really need help kicking the French's ass at this stage.)

If I was going to pick between them, I'd go with Portugal.
Agreed, I think Portugal might make the most sense if Edward III is wanting his son to start producing heirs as soon as possible. A marriage in 1346 after Crecy perhaps then?
 
So, there've been a lot of threads on what happens if the Black Prince survives etc. But I've never really seen a thread on what if he'd made a different marriage. Otl he married Joan of Kent, and had two children, but there were proposals of marriage put out before then when he was a teenager that never went through.

Possible candidates I can think of:

Blanche of Navarre (b.1331) otl second wife of Philippe VI, could be a good match and secure England's frontier in Gascony.
Blanca's match was arranged by her mom, so no English match for her. 1335 she was engaged to the dauphin, in the 1340s that was switched to Pedro el Cruel to coincide with her sister's marriage to Aragon (arranged in the mid-1330s). Her match to Philippe VI was one of Jeanne's last acts IIRC.
Elisabeth or Agnes of Bavaria (b.1329) and (1335) respectively./ I believe Edward was considering an alliance with their father Louis so that could be part of this.
Possible
Are there any other Princesses who could get the nod?
A Luxemburg match, when Edward III is offering Isabella of Woodstock to Karl IV? You could go for a double whammy and get a Habsburg princess in 1341 (an alt-daughter of Otto the Merry and Elisabeth of Lower Bavaria, ora TTL daughter of Otto and Anna of Luxemburg) when Edward's offering Joan of England to Otto's son. Or in the 1350s when Margaret of Windsor is offerred for Albrecht III?
 

VVD0D95

Banned
Blanca's match was arranged by her mom, so no English match for her. 1335 she was engaged to the dauphin, in the 1340s that was switched to Pedro el Cruel to coincide with her sister's marriage to Aragon (arranged in the mid-1330s). Her match to Philippe VI was one of Jeanne's last acts IIRC.

Possible

A Luxemburg match, when Edward III is offering Isabella of Woodstock to Karl IV? You could go for a double whammy and get a Habsburg princess in 1341 (an alt-daughter of Otto the Merry and Elisabeth of Lower Bavaria, ora TTL daughter of Otto and Anna of Luxemburg) when Edward's offering Joan of England to Otto's son. Or in the 1350s when Margaret of Windsor is offerred for Albrecht III?
Oooh that could be goose the Plantagenets getting what the Stuart’s desperately wanted has a funny sort of humour to it aha
 
Elisabeth or Agnes of Bavaria (b.1329) and (1335) respectively./ I believe Edward was considering an alliance with their father Louis so that could be part of this.
I personally would try and go for a match here. Not because it would give Edward and Louis and alliance, but also because their mother,
Margaret II, Countess of Hainault (1311–1356), is the older sister of Philippa, meaning the arranged marriage could be done through them.

Elisabeth of Bavaria (1329 – 2 August 1402) married in 1350, so if they could marry before, or her first died in 1359. IOTL she had 9 sons (not all live to adulthood) but either way this will be very interesting to see how more branches of the Plantagenet family can form with alternative roses sprouting up to rival those of York and Lancaster.

The problem you may find with Agnes of Bavaria (1335 – 11 November 1352) unless the P.o.D. Is that she is born health is that IOTL, she rejected a marriage with a nobleman chosen by her relatives and instead entered a cloister, as she was a sickly person for most of her short life and died in 1352 aged 17.

As well as the two ladies above their older sister, Anna of Bavaria, Dowager Duchess of Lower Bavaria (c. 1326 – 3 June 1361) although four years older then Edward, is widowed without issues, in 1340 so could be offered as well.

The only problem we may have is in regards to the dispensation that is needed to be obtained for their marriage due to closeness of relation, may be denied by Pope Clement VI, whom is not on best terms with either Edward III, (for refusing a summoning in 1328 and encroachments on ecclesiastical jurisdiction) or Louis IV, Holy Roman Emperor (having excommunicated the Emperor, and directed the election of Charles IV, in 1346)

I would choose Elizabeth and marry her to Edward in a proxy wedding in 1349 and her travel to England to marry in person before his return to France is 1355.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edward of Woodstock, “the Black Prince” (15/6/1330–8/6/1376) m. By Proxy. 1349, In Person. 1351, Elisabeth of Bavaria (c. 1329–2/8/1402)
1) Edward of Chester (1353–1410) [1] m.​
2) Richard of Winchelsea, Duke of Cambridge (1355–1404) [2] m. 1371, Constance of Castile (1354–1394) [see 8]​
3) Louis of Bordeaux (1357–1372) [3]​
4) William of London (1359–1375) [4]​
5) Henry of La Rochelle (1362-1412) [5] m.​
6) Peter of Angoulême (1363-1403) [6] m. 1375, Eleanor de Bohun, Countess of Hereford and Essex (c. 1366 – 3 October 1399)​
7) Lionel of Angoulême (1365-1370) [7]​
8) Alphonso of Capbreton (1366-1413) [8] m.​
9) Thomas of Bordeaux (1367 –1422) [9] m.​


[1] In 1353 some disturbances seem to have broken out in Cheshire, for the Prince as Earl of Chester marched with Henry of Grosmont, Duke of Lancaster to the neighbourhood of Chester to protect the justices, who were holding an assize there. Pregnant Elizabeth travelled with them and would give birth within their lodgings in Chester.

[2] Richard was born just before his parents departed Winchelsea to campaign in France, Richard along with his older brother, would stay in England with the governesses and household.

[3] Named after his maternal grandfather, Louis IV, Holy Roman Emperor, whom had died 10 years previously) as well as his maternal uncles, Louis V, Duke of Bavaria and Louis the Roman, whom stood as god parents.

[4] Born a few month before his father, left with his grandfather, during the Reims campaign. He was named after his fathers younger brother, whom died within a year of his birth as well as his ancestor, William the Conqueror.

[5] Henry was born during the journey between England and Gascony, as his family landed in La Rochelle, the prince was greeted with cheers and applause.

[6] Born around May 1363, when his father entertained Peter, King of Cyprus at Angoulême, and named his son in his honour.
Peter would be married to Eleanor de Bohun the elder daughter and co-heiress (with her sister, Mary de Bohun), of Humphrey de Bohun, 7th Earl of Hereford (1341–1373), by his wife Joan Fitzalan, a daughter of Richard FitzAlan, 10th Earl of Arundel and his second wife Eleanor of Lancaster. Eleanor and her husband had the tutelage of her younger sister, Mary, who was being instructed in religious doctrine in the hope that she would enter a convent, thus leaving her share of the considerable Bohun inheritance to Eleanor and Peter.

[7] Born in at Angoulême, and named after his uncle, Lionel, Duke of Clarence. He would sadly die of the bubonic plague before his 5th birthday.

[8] Born in the town of Capbreton, where is mother and father, had been waiting to greet King Peter of Castile to flee from his kingdom with his son and his three daughters, it was during this meeting that Edward would arrange the marriage of his second son, to the eldest daugter, Constance of Castile. He was named in honour of both Alphonso, Earl of Chester and Peter's son, Alfonso, Prince of Asturias.

[9] Born during the Spanish Campaign of 1365-67, Edward, the Black Prince stayed over Christmas at Bordeaux, where Princess Elizabeth, gave birth to their final son.
 

VVD0D95

Banned
I personally would try and go for a match here. Not because it would give Edward and Louis and alliance, but also because their mother,
Margaret II, Countess of Hainault (1311–1356), is the older sister of Philippa, meaning the arranged marriage could be done through them.

Elisabeth of Bavaria (1329 – 2 August 1402) married in 1350, so if they could marry before, or her first died in 1359. IOTL she had 9 sons (not all live to adulthood) but either way this will be very interesting to see how more branches of the Plantagenet family can form with alternative roses sprouting up to rival those of York and Lancaster.

The problem you may find with Agnes of Bavaria (1335 – 11 November 1352) unless the P.o.D. Is that she is born health is that IOTL, she rejected a marriage with a nobleman chosen by her relatives and instead entered a cloister, as she was a sickly person for most of her short life and died in 1352 aged 17.

As well as the two ladies above their older sister, Anna of Bavaria, Dowager Duchess of Lower Bavaria (c. 1326 – 3 June 1361) although four years older then Edward, is widowed without issues, in 1340 so could be offered as well.

The only problem we may have is in regards to the dispensation that is needed to be obtained for their marriage due to closeness of relation, may be denied by Pope Clement VI, whom is not on best terms with either Edward III, (for refusing a summoning in 1328 and encroachments on ecclesiastical jurisdiction) or Louis IV, Holy Roman Emperor (having excommunicated the Emperor, and directed the election of Charles IV, in 1346)

I would choose Elizabeth and marry her to Edward in a proxy wedding in 1349 and her travel to England to marry in person before his return to France is 1355.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edward of Woodstock, “the Black Prince” (15/6/1330–8/6/1376) m. By Proxy. 1349, In Person. 1351, Elisabeth of Bavaria (c. 1329–2/8/1402)
1) Edward of Chester (1353–1410) [1] m.​
2) Richard of Winchelsea, Duke of Cambridge (1355–1404) [2] m. 1371, Constance of Castile (1354–1394) [see 8]​
3) Louis of Bordeaux (1357–1372) [3]​
4) William of London (1359–1375) [4]​
5) Henry of La Rochelle (1362-1412) [5] m.​
6) Peter of Angoulême (1363-1403) [6] m. 1375, Eleanor de Bohun, Countess of Hereford and Essex (c. 1366 – 3 October 1399)​
7) Lionel of Angoulême (1365-1370) [7]​
8) Alphonso of Capbreton (1366-1413) [8] m.​
9) Thomas of Bordeaux (1367 –1422) [9] m.​


[1] In 1353 some disturbances seem to have broken out in Cheshire, for the Prince as Earl of Chester marched with Henry of Grosmont, Duke of Lancaster to the neighbourhood of Chester to protect the justices, who were holding an assize there. Pregnant Elizabeth travelled with them and would give birth within their lodgings in Chester.

[2] Richard was born just before his parents departed Winchelsea to campaign in France, Richard along with his older brother, would stay in England with the governesses and household.

[3] Named after his maternal grandfather, Louis IV, Holy Roman Emperor, whom had died 10 years previously) as well as his maternal uncles, Louis V, Duke of Bavaria and Louis the Roman, whom stood as god parents.

[4] Born a few month before his father, left with his grandfather, during the Reims campaign. He was named after his fathers younger brother, whom died within a year of his birth as well as his ancestor, William the Conqueror.

[5] Henry was born during the journey between England and Gascony, as his family landed in La Rochelle, the prince was greeted with cheers and applause.

[6] Born around May 1363, when his father entertained Peter, King of Cyprus at Angoulême, and named his son in his honour.
Peter would be married to Eleanor de Bohun the elder daughter and co-heiress (with her sister, Mary de Bohun), of Humphrey de Bohun, 7th Earl of Hereford (1341–1373), by his wife Joan Fitzalan, a daughter of Richard FitzAlan, 10th Earl of Arundel and his second wife Eleanor of Lancaster. Eleanor and her husband had the tutelage of her younger sister, Mary, who was being instructed in religious doctrine in the hope that she would enter a convent, thus leaving her share of the considerable Bohun inheritance to Eleanor and Peter.

[7] Born in at Angoulême, and named after his uncle, Lionel, Duke of Clarence. He would sadly die of the bubonic plague before his 5th birthday.

[8] Born in the town of Capbreton, where is mother and father, had been waiting to greet King Peter of Castile to flee from his kingdom with his son and his three daughters, it was during this meeting that Edward would arrange the marriage of his second son, to the eldest daugter, Constance of Castile. He was named in honour of both Alphonso, Earl of Chester and Peter's son, Alfonso, Prince of Asturias.

[9] Born during the Spanish Campaign of 1365-67, Edward, the Black Prince stayed over Christmas at Bordeaux, where Princess Elizabeth, gave birth to their final son.
Intetesting quite the tree and with the eldest being a man grown by the time he ascends no painful regency either
 
Intetesting quite the tree and with the eldest being a man grown by the time he ascends no painful regency either
Exactly, hopefully an older king will be able to handle the turbulent years to come. Haven't quiet found a good match for him yet but I am happy with the two marriages I have so far.
 

VVD0D95

Banned
Exactly, hopefully an older king will be able to handle the turbulent years to come. Haven't quiet found a good match for him yet but I am happy with the two marriages I have so far.
Agreed, tbink England will be a lot more stable here than it was otl
 

Grey Wolf

Donor
The main consequence assuming children are born is that they would be older.

We cannot of course assume that there would only be the two boys, or that it is Richard not Edward who survives, or indeed maybe both of them survive which would add another royal duke
 
Agreed, tbink England will be a lot more stable here than it was otl
Hopefully in terms of no regency but as pointed out, the war of roses could still happen with more houses coming forward. All you need is one weak king to come along and then the fuse is lit.
The main consequence assuming children are born is that they would be older.

We cannot of course assume that there would only be the two boys, or that it is Richard not Edward who survives, or indeed maybe both of them survive which would add another royal duke
Definitely as said in previous post, although being married to the outcasted family of Castile means that they could be sent to fight abroad. The children could stay and lead the House of Cambridge in a Battle of the Roses.
 

VVD0D95

Banned
Hopefully in terms of no regency but as pointed out, the war of roses could still happen with more houses coming forward. All you need is one weak king to come along and then the fuse is lit.

Definitely as said in previous post, although being married to the outcasted family of Castile means that they could be sent to fight abroad. The children could stay and lead the House of Cambridge in a Battle of the Roses.
This is very true, if the main line has only daughters at some point could cause chaos
 
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