Edward of Middleham is born healthy

[VVD0D95]

Richard II would be no less ruthless than Henry Tudor in dealing with potential claimants - I see no reason why he couldn't stabilise England. Although his relatively early death proposed in 1500 will leave some unfinished business for Edward, most likely. Being that much older than Henry VIII Edward is unlikely to be drawn in to the religious turmoil in Europe to the same degree as Henry VIII was (pro or anti reformation) and certainly is not likely to fall out over hs marriages to the same degree with the pope (who else could??).

So a much later Church of England if it forms at all. Possibly going full on Wars of Religion as per France in Edward's son's (or grandson's) reign

Agreed re Edward taking up from Richard, s tichard dying to o early here?

And interesting so perhaps a bottom up attempt at reformation?

 

[isabella]

This is very true, though one imagines once Tudor is dead most of the Edwardian yorkists would have to reconcile with Richard no?

Not really. They are not Lancastrians and so little invested in Henry Tudor... For them any decent husband of Elizabeth of York who can rally an army would be fine

Richard II would be no less ruthless than Henry Tudor in dealing with potential claimants - I see no reason why he couldn't stabilise England. Although his relatively early death proposed in 1500 will leave some unfinished business for Edward, most likely. Being that much older than Henry VIII Edward is unlikely to be drawn in to the religious turmoil in Europe to the same degree as Henry VIII was (pro or anti reformation) and certainly is not likely to fall out over hs marriages to the same degree with the pope (who else could??).

So a much later Church of England if it forms at all. Possibly going full on Wars of Religion as per France in Edward's son's (or grandson's) reign

Absolutely agree on this. No way Richard III will be less ruthless than Henry Tudor as he has demonstrated the same determination in dealing with his rivals earlier...

 

[VVD0D95]

Not really. They are not Lancastrians and so little invested in Henry Tudor... For them any decent husband of Elizabeth of York who can rally an army would be fine



Absolutely agree on this. No way Richard III will be less ruthless than Henry Tudor as he has demonstrated the same determination in dealing with his rivals earlier...

So, then why not stick Elizabeth in a nunnery in England where Richard can keep an eye on her?


This does make me think there will be a Perkin Warbeck type situation in the 1490s then?

 

[Derek Pullem]

So, then why not stick Elizabeth in a nunnery in England where Richard can keep an eye on her?


This does make me think there will be a Perkin Warbeck type situation in the 1490s then?

Absolutely there will be a string of "claimants" just as there was under Henry VII.

Elizabeth to a nunnery is a high risk decision. As she is a bastard by law it may be the only route though (unless there is another "Tower" accident but hat would really stretch the nobles credulity) or perhaps get her married to an obscure European family for a big dowry (Portugal?)

 

[VVD0D95]

Absolutely there will be a string of "claimants" just as there was under Henry VII.

Elizabeth to a nunnery is a high risk decision. As she is a bastard by law it may be the only route though (unless there is another "Tower" accident but hat would really stretch the nobles credulity) or perhaps get her married to an obscure European family for a big dowry (Portugal?)

Hmm agreed, which will no doubt give Richard and Edward a chance to show off their military ability, though one imagines Edward won't be allowed to fight until he's married and sired kids.

And this is true, Manuel was touted as a possibility otl, could he be considered here?

Also a slightly random query here for everyone, would it be beyond the realms of possibility for John II of Portugal and his wife Leonor of Viseu to have a daughter as well as their son Afonso? I can't find a reason for why they didn't have more kids? If so, perhaps Edward marries that daughter?

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Elizabeth to a nunnery is a high risk decision. As she is a bastard by law it may be the only route though (unless there is another "Tower" accident but hat would really stretch the nobles credulity) or perhaps get her married to an obscure European family for a big dowry (Portugal?)

Problem with stickingher in a convent is that ANY passing knight or nobleman can simply jailbreak her, marry her and knock her up and wham...you've got an Edwardian Yorkist heir.

Marrying her off abroad was a good option OTL because Dickon had no girls of his own. Here, he'd have ro ensure that the person DIDN'T have a Lancastrian claim (à la João II/Manuel, Philipp der Schöne, Maximilian, Juan d'Aragon) or if he DID, he was too far removed from England to be a credible threat or better, unambitious enough to NOT press the claim.

What about the OTL Frederik I of Denmark? Brother to King Hans who had been slated to marry Mary of York. Improve relations with Denmark and Scotland. Not really someone who was going to mount an armada. And Christine of Saxony popped out three boys between her marriage and 1483 (true, two died) but no reason she wouldn't pop out more.

 

[VVD0D95]

Problem with stickingher in a convent is that ANY passing knight or nobleman can simply jailbreak her, marry her and knock her up and wham...you've got an Edwardian Yorkist heir.

Marrying her off abroad was a good option OTL because Dickon had no girls of his own. Here, he'd have ro ensure that the person DIDN'T have a Lancastrian claim (à la João II/Manuel, Philipp der Schöne, Maximilian, Juan d'Aragon) or if he DID, he was too far removed from England to be a credible threat or better, unambitious enough to NOT press the claim.

What about the OTL Frederik I of Denmark? Brother to King Hans who had been slated to marry Mary of York. Improve relations with Denmark and Scotland. Not really someone who was going to mount an armada. And Christine of Saxony popped out three boys between her marriage and 1483 (true, two died) but no reason she wouldn't pop out more.

Oh that sounds quite good, keeps her far enough away thay people can forget about her but also close enough for Richard to keep an eye

 

[Derek Pullem]

Oh that sounds quite good, keeps her far enough away thay people can forget about her but also close enough for Richard to keep an eye

The difficulty with that plan is that she is technically a bastard with no titles. Perhaps Richard might grant her an honourary title - Duchess of Richmond perhaps (a nod to Henry Fitzroy from OTL). Might also go some way to placate those lords who were not that convinced of the illegitimacy argument.

If Elizabeth accepted the title would she de facto be accepting Richards argument over the illegitimate marriage of her father?

 

[isabella]

So, then why not stick Elizabeth in a nunnery in England where Richard can keep an eye on her?

Because then the problem would be Cecily and after her their younger sisters...

Problem with stickingher in a convent is that ANY passing knight or nobleman can simply jailbreak her, marry her and knock her up and wham...you've got an Edwardian Yorkist heir.

Marrying her off abroad was a good option OTL because Dickon had no girls of his own. Here, he'd have ro ensure that the person DIDN'T have a Lancastrian claim (à la João II/Manuel, Philipp der Schöne, Maximilian, Juan d'Aragon) or if he DID, he was too far removed from England to be a credible threat or better, unambitious enough to NOT press the claim.

What about the OTL Frederik I of Denmark? Brother to King Hans who had been slated to marry Mary of York. Improve relations with Denmark and Scotland. Not really someone who was going to mount an armada. And Christine of Saxony popped out three boys between her marriage and 1483 (true, two died) but no reason she wouldn't pop out more.

Manuel, Duke of Beja can be a good solution as he is quite powerless (at least in terms of organizing an expedition for conquering England as he has neither the money or the army for doing that, unless he inherited the crown of Portugal)

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Manuel, Duke of Beja can be a good solution as he is quite powerless (at least in terms of organizing an expedition for conquering England as he has neither the money or the army for doing that, unless he inherited the crown of Portugal)

True, and either the survival of Joao II-Leonor's younger son or the birth of a daughter would remove him even further from the throne. Problem would be that a daughter would be betrothed to Juan, prince de los Asturias essentially from birth.

 

[VVD0D95]

The difficulty with that plan is that she is technically a bastard with no titles. Perhaps Richard might grant her an honourary title - Duchess of Richmond perhaps (a nod to Henry Fitzroy from OTL). Might also go some way to placate those lords who were not that convinced of the illegitimacy argument.

If Elizabeth accepted the title would she de facto be accepting Richards argument over the illegitimate marriage of her father?

Hmm this is true, and I think yes she would be, which I don't think would be a blow for her, but would be for her mother and for her father's memory?

Because then the problem would be Cecily and after her their younger sisters...


Manuel, Duke of Beja can be a good solution as he is quite powerless (at least in terms of organizing an expedition for conquering England as he has neither the money or the army for doing that, unless he inherited the crown of Portugal)

True, and also true, and given I'm tempted to have Afonso Prince of Portugal not die from that horse riding accident, he'd likely not be inheriting anything anytime soon.

 

[VVD0D95]

True, and either the survival of Joao II-Leonor's younger son or the birth of a daughter would remove him even further from the throne. Problem would be that a daughter would be betrothed to Juan, prince de los Asturias essentially from birth.

Rather than Afonso betrothed to Isabella?

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Rather than Afonso betrothed to @isabella?

Probably both matches would happen, no?

 

[VVD0D95]

Probably both matches would happen, no?

Hmm, this is true, though both marriages between the two Kingdoms seems a waste no? Especially if they're looking for the Anti French alliance per otl.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Hmm, this is true, though both marriages between the two Kingdoms seems a waste no? Especially if they're looking for the Anti French alliance per otl.

Fernand and Isabel married Juana/Juan off to Philipp/Margarethe, so it doesn't seem too wasteful IMO. What woulud be fun is if they marry Afonso to Isabel, but he has a younger brother who marries elsewhere. Afonso-Isabel don't have kids, little brother succeeds, kids have "fresh" blood.

 

[VVD0D95]

Fernand and Isabel married Juana/Juan off to Philipp/Margarethe, so it doesn't seem too wasteful IMO. What woulud be fun is if they marry Afonso to Isabel, but he has a younger brother who marries elsewhere. Afonso-Isabel don't have kids, little brother succeeds, kids have "fresh" blood.

Oooh that could be quite good, hmm where might said second son marry to? Domestically or abroad to say somewhere like Savoy etc?

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Oooh that could be quite good, hmm where might said second son marry to? Domestically or abroad to say somewhere like Savoy etc?

Joao II/Leonor's younger son (Joao) was born in 1483, so if he's regarded as unimportant enough (maybe Affonso-Isabel have a string of short-lived children à la Joao III-Katharina of Austria), he might be married off elsewhere. Say...Savoy, a TTL Margaret Tudor equivalent granddaughter of Richard III or someone like a daughter of Charles VIII and Richard III's daughter.

 

[VVD0D95]

Joao II/Leonor's younger son (Joao) was born in 1483, so if he's regarded as unimportant enough (maybe Affonso-Isabel have a string of short-lived children à la Joao III-Katharina of Austria), he might be married off elsewhere. Say...Savoy, a TTL Margaret Tudor equivalent granddaughter of Richard III or someone like a daughter of Charles VIII and Richard III's daughter.

Oooh now that would be interesting, and of course if Afonso and Isabel both die without surviving issue whilst Joao is either still alive or his son is, win win.

 

[BlueFlowwer]

If John II of Portugal had more luck with children then a renewed Anglo-Portugese relation would be good for Richard.

John II of Portugal b 1455 d 1499 m Eleanor of Viseu b 1458 d 1525

Infante Alfonso b 1475 d 1491 m Infanta Isabella of Aragon
Infanta Isabella, Queen of England b 1476 d 1534
Peter II of Portugal b 1480 d 1530 m Joanna I of Castile b 1479 d 1533

 

[VVD0D95]

If John II of Portugal had more luck with children then a renewed Anglo-Portugese relation would be good for Richard.

John II of Portugal b 1455 d 1499 m Eleanor of Viseu b 1458 d 1525

Infante Alfonso b 1475 d 1491 m Infanta Isabella of Aragon
Infanta Isabella, Queen of England b 1476 d 1534
Peter II of Portugal b 1480 d 1530 m Joanna I of Castile b 1479 d 1533

That works quite well, though would Isabella of Portugal be considered more valuable to Richard than Juana of Castile?