Edward of Angouleme, son of the Black Prince lives

WI Edward of Angouleme, eldest son of the Black Prince and brother to OTL Richard II, lives?

He's only 2 years older than Richard so assuming his father and grandfather die as OTL there will still be a Regency council.
Presumably he'll be married to Anne of Bohemia instead of Richard.

But what would the reign of *Edward IV bring?
Is Henry Bolingbroke disinherited as OTL?
If Edward acts like Richard II does he get deposed in favour of Richard (probably made Duke of Gloucester c1399)? If Edward has sons is this an earlier Humpback King?

What happens to the succession if Edward or his sons are childless or have no sons?
 
WI Edward of Angouleme, eldest son of the Black Prince and brother to OTL Richard II, lives?

He's only 2 years older than Richard so assuming his father and grandfather die as OTL there will still be a Regency council.
Presumably he'll be married to Anne of Bohemia instead of Richard.

But what would the reign of *Edward IV bring?
Is Henry Bolingbroke disinherited as OTL?
If Edward acts like Richard II does he get deposed in favour of Richard (probably made Duke of Gloucester c1399)? If Edward has sons is this an earlier Humpback King?

What happens to the succession if Edward or his sons are childless or have no sons?

1) Most likely not. Its possible, since Edward could be like Richard was OTL, but it is unlikely.

2) Not sure if he'd be made Duke of Gloucester (I'm not familiar enough with the way the different dukedoms were handed out and what ones have been "taken" already). What do you mean by Humpback King? If Edward IV has sons, they'll probably be of age when he dies (not a given, but very much more likely than not), so this Richard has no chance to play kinslayer/usurper if that's what you havei n mind.

3) Richard's line, then Lionel's (which lead to OTL's Edward IV), then John of Gaunt's (the House of Lancaster), I think.

This probably has an impact on the Hundred Years War. Anyone's guess what, though.
 
1) Most likely not. Its possible, since Edward could be like Richard was OTL, but it is unlikely.

2) Not sure if he'd be made Duke of Gloucester (I'm not familiar enough with the way the different dukedoms were handed out and what ones have been "taken" already). What do you mean by Humpback King? If Edward IV has sons, they'll probably be of age when he dies (not a given, but very much more likely than not), so this Richard has no chance to play kinslayer/usurper if that's what you havei n mind.

3) Richard's line, then Lionel's (which lead to OTL's Edward IV), then John of Gaunt's (the House of Lancaster), I think.

This probably has an impact on the Hundred Years War. Anyone's guess what, though.

I was thinking that Richard would become Duke of Gloucester when Thomas of Woodstock son died and that made me think of our Richard III ;).
Anyways, looking closely Thomas was one of the Lords Appellant and killed on Richard's orders in 1397 so that complicates matters.

Assuming ATL Edward IV relies on the same courtiers as OTL Richard II - and no reason why not - we still end up with the Peasants Revolt.
However with Edward now of age in 1386 when John of Gaunt leaves for Castile could the Lords Appellant reasonably take power as OTL?

And if Edward has children with Anne would marriage with Isabella of Valois be as important to the peace with France?

So many possible changes!
 
I was thinking that Richard would become Duke of Gloucester when Thomas of Woodstock son died and that made me think of our Richard III ;).
Anyways, looking closely Thomas was one of the Lords Appellant and killed on Richard's orders in 1397 so that complicates matters.

Richard probably gets some other dukedom, then.

Assuming ATL Edward IV relies on the same courtiers as OTL Richard II - and no reason why not - we still end up with the Peasants Revolt.
However with Edward now of age in 1386 when John of Gaunt leaves for Castile could the Lords Appellant reasonably take power as OTL?

They could, but if Edward is of age, they don't have much excuse to.


And if Edward has children with Anne would marriage with Isabella of Valois be as important to the peace with France?

If he has children with Anne, would he marry Isabella of Valois? Or for that matter, even if he doesn't would he make the same decision?

So many possible changes!

Indeed. Would be a fun timeline to read or write.
 
The first Dukedom of Gloucester was created by Richard II himself for his uncle Thomas of Woodstock (whom he later had murdered). The title was definitely available therefore. I presume the "hunchback king" reference is to Richard II being made Duke of Gloucester, possible, then usurping the throne like a later Richard, Duke of Gloucester, unlikely I feel.

It is really impossible to speculate on the character of Edward of Angoulême, he died so young. Being that bit older than Richard II was when brought to England and then upon succession he might have been more stable, is all one can say. It is hard to see how he could have been worse than Richard, but effectively a surviving Edward is a tabula rasa upon which you can write whatever you wish. As for the succession, it was not codified in statute at the time, therefore any situation bar son succeeding father was up for grabs. Certainly by later law the children of Clarence were next, but under then-existing law it wasn't even clear that Richard as a grandson was.
 
WI Edward of Angouleme, eldest son of the Black Prince and brother to OTL Richard II, lives?

He's only 2 years older than Richard so assuming his father and grandfather die as OTL there will still be a Regency council.
Presumably he'll be married to Anne of Bohemia instead of Richard.

But what would the reign of *Edward IV bring?
Is Henry Bolingbroke disinherited as OTL?
If Edward acts like Richard II does he get deposed in favour of Richard (probably made Duke of Gloucester c1399)? If Edward has sons is this an earlier Humpback King?

What happens to the succession if Edward or his sons are childless or have no sons?
He could leave the french crown claim and the french lands to the Lancasters.
 
He could leave the french crown claim and the french lands to the Lancasters.

If memory serves, the claim is through Edward III's mother - so somehow he's a closer descendant of the Capets than the Valois. So it goes down through his descendants in the natural course of things.

Not sure I can get why Edward IV (ignoring the * since OTL's can be mentioned as such) would give away the Plantagent royal holdings to someone else or how (and of course why) one would transfer the royal claim.

Edward has every reason to keep those. And no reason at all not to.

No matter how fond he is of his uncle.
 
There is actually a way of splitting the Angevin claims to France and England, such that the English claim went to the Mortimers and the French to the Lancasters. The Mortimer claim to England would be by male-preference primogeniture, which ultimately became established as the rule. The Lancaster claim to France would be as senior males in succession to Edward III, whose own claim was as senior male in proximity of blood to Charles IV. The presumption is that the succession to the French claim would proceed agnatically from Edward III until the male line was exhausted, when semi-Salic law and proximity of blood would again operate.

In practice the English succession and French claim were regarded as inseparable until the latter was given up by George III. Also in practice, the postulated Edward IV would himself have been senior male in succession to Edward III, followed by his brother Richard and only then by the Lancasters, and not only wouldn't but couldn't have transferred the claim to the latter.
 
Also in practice, the postulated Edward IV would himself have been senior male in succession to Edward III, followed by his brother Richard and only then by the Lancasters, and not only wouldn't but couldn't have transferred the claim to the latter.

This is the important bit.
 
Ok.
Let's assume that the Lords Appellant don't take control following the Peasant's Revolt since Edward is of age.
However their presence has a moderating influence such that while Edward is unpopular he's not as unpopular as Richard II. So, no need to kill or try the Lords for treason later. And Edward's cronies also survive.

We'll assume that Anne & Edward have a surviving son Edward c.85 who is betrothed to Isabella of Valois as part of a similar peace with France. However Edward IV passes away with his wife c95 of plague.

So we have a Regency including Richard Duke of Gloucester, John Duke of Lancaster, Thomas Duke of Aumale (since he doesn't get Gloucester!), Edmund Duke of York, and others (who do you think?).
Possibly Richard is Regent but he might be considered too young. Would John be considered? Or would it remain a council? I think it likely here that this is where the Lords Appellant have power and start taking out Edward's cronies but what affect would this have?
 
The Professor said:
So we have a Regency including Richard Duke of Gloucester, John Duke of Lancaster, Thomas Duke of Aumale (since he doesn't get Gloucester!), Edmund Duke of York, and others (who do you think?).

Don't see the need for more people. In this you would already have the late king's brother (Richard of Gloucester, OTL Richard II) and important member of the English Royal Family (John of Gaunt, 1st Duke of Lancaster, Edmund, 1st Duke of York, and Thomas, ATL 1st Duke of Aumale).

The Professor said:
Possibly Richard is Regent but he might be considered too young. Would John be considered? Or would it remain a council? I think it likely here that this is where the Lords Appellant have power and start taking out Edward's cronies but what affect would this have?

Age was generally not considered a problem with Ruling, even in Regency. As closest adult male relative to the deceased *Edward IV, Richard would probably be named Regent.
Another Candidate would be *Edward IV's Queen, but she is French and a Valois. Don't really think that plays much in her favor.

John of Gaunt is probably going to be a very important character in that scenario. He was very influential at the time. If he isn't made Regent, he will probably have an important role in the Regency.
 
There is actually a way of splitting the Angevin claims to France and England, such that the English claim went to the Mortimers and the French to the Lancasters. The Mortimer claim to England would be by male-preference primogeniture, which ultimately became established as the rule. The Lancaster claim to France would be as senior males in succession to Edward III, whose own claim was as senior male in proximity of blood to Charles IV. The presumption is that the succession to the French claim would proceed agnatically from Edward III until the male line was exhausted, when semi-Salic law and proximity of blood would again operate.

In practice the English succession and French claim were regarded as inseparable until the latter was given up by George III. Also in practice, the postulated Edward IV would himself have been senior male in succession to Edward III, followed by his brother Richard and only then by the Lancasters, and not only wouldn't but couldn't have transferred the claim to the latter.
This is what I did earlier on my TL, Lancastrian survival.
 
Don't see the need for more people. In this you would already have the late king's brother (Richard of Gloucester, OTL Richard II) and important member of the English Royal Family (John of Gaunt, 1st Duke of Lancaster, Edmund, 1st Duke of York, and Thomas, ATL 1st Duke of Aumale).
Seems reasonable.
BTW Thomas was Duke of Aumale OTL too I just didn't think he'd also get Gloucester ;)
Age was generally not considered a problem with Ruling, even in Regency. As closest adult male relative to the deceased *Edward IV, Richard would probably be named Regent.
Another Candidate would be *Edward IV's Queen, but she is French and a Valois. Don't really think that plays much in her favor.

John of Gaunt is probably going to be a very important character in that scenario. He was very influential at the time. If he isn't made Regent, he will probably have an important role in the Regency.

Yes, John of Gaunt would be very important and would likely be the main muscles of the Regency. He'd probably also be as loyal as OTL so no ASB attempt on the throne.
Interestingly it means his son Henry Bolingbroke would likely remain loyal unless anything happens to the young Edward V.
 
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