Edward III King of England I Duke of Brittany

In an earlier Thread I posited a WI to give an English King better prospects for French lands. Let's discuss this more thoroughly.

Basically Edward III's first wife Philippa of Hainaut dies c1335 - let's say complications over her childbirth of Joan.
Edward then married Joanna heiress of Penthievre and niece of Duke John III of Brittany.

When Duke John c1341 dies, during the latest part of the HYW, the nobles support Edward against Count John of Montfort who ATL gets French support.
With John of Montfort's death roughly as OTL in 1345 Edward is Duke of Brittany.

Edward and Joanna have children as follows:

John b1338 future Duke of Brittany
Guy of Brest b1339/40 married to the Countess of Ulster (like OTL Lionel) - dies childless
Edmund b1341 future Duke of Lancaster - marries 1st Blanche of Lancaster, 2nd Constance of Castile
Thomas b1342 future Duke of York - marries Isabella of Castile

We'll assume counteracting butterflies so that Edward's sons intervene in Castile roughly as OTL, and Betrand de Guesclin fights for France.

A slightly different Treaty of Bretigny confirms John as Duke of Brittany in return for a smaller Aquitaine.

Richard of Bordeaux succeeds as OTL as Richard II; Edmund and Thomas becoming Lords Appellant eventually dispossessing Richard in favour of John of Brittany.

So what happens next?
How could the HYW continue?
What happens with the succession of France while England has a ruling House of Brittany? Do we get a slightly more successful Dual Monarchy?
 

Philip

Donor
A slightly different Treaty of Bretigny confirms John as Duke of Brittany in return for a smaller Aquitaine.

Richard of Bordeaux succeeds as OTL as Richard II; Edmund and Thomas becoming Lords Appellant eventually dispossessing Richard in favour of John of Brittany.
Does Charles V relaunch the war in 1369 or thereabouts? If he does, then this phase of the war needs to go better for the English. Otherwise, John of Brittany could be expelled from Brittany before he can become King of England.
 
Well if there is a treaty similar to that of Leulingham in 1389 then John would be recognised as Duke in Brittany (OTL the Duke proclaimed neutrality leaving the English no choice but to leave).

Things only kicked off again in 1402 when Henry IV married the Duke's widow Jeanne of Navarre.
TTL John's disposition of Richard would do that.
 
I think unless the House of Brittany is superior to the House of Lancaster, events will go roughly as OTL.

Details will vary, but the general situation hasn't been altered very much.

John II might be better at cultivating support from those Frenchmen who support the Plantagenet claim though (for whatever reasons), which should have some butterflies.
 
I think unless the House of Brittany is superior to the House of Lancaster, events will go roughly as OTL.

Details will vary, but the general situation hasn't been altered very much.

John II might be better at cultivating support from those Frenchmen who support the Plantagenet claim though (for whatever reasons), which should have some butterflies.

Yes, a lot depends on whether John III (since John II is likely dead by 1420s) is better than OTL Henry IV at getting France. Perhaps if the Dauphin is captured like Duke Charles of Orleans it might delay Philippe of Burgundy's switch to the Dauphin's claim.

And, unlikely though I think it is, if both Charleses die without issue we now have Philippe heir to France - imagine a France with the Low Countries and FrancheComte at that time!
 

Philip

Donor
I think unless the House of Brittany is superior to the House of Lancaster, events will go roughly as OTL.
OTL House of Lancaster descends from John of Gaunt. He was born in 1340. The POD for TTL is the death of Phillipa in 1335. TTL's House of Lancaster would come from the proposed Edmund (b. 1341). His claim would definitely be weaker than his older brother, John of Brittany.
 
OTL House of Lancaster descends from John of Gaunt. He was born in 1340. The POD for TTL is the death of Phillipa in 1335. TTL's House of Lancaster would come from the proposed Edmund (b. 1341). His claim would definitely be weaker than his older brother, John of Brittany.

I think I wrote my post unclearly there if we're getting into a dispute on the strength of their claims.

If John III and John IV are more competent than Henry IV and Henry V, things might be different, if not, we just changed a few names and a few details of Brittany's history.
 
If John III and John IV are more competent than Henry IV and Henry V, things might be different, if not, we just changed a few names and a few details of Brittany's history.

It depends on if John III (or IV) are also kicked out of Brittany, and if a Montfort claimant still exists (and if supported by the Breton nobles).

The English Monarchs may retract their claim to France if they get to keep Brittany.

A side effect could be continued autonomy for Brittany.


Another thing to consider is what the lack of the War of the Roses does to England. Especially as the royal succession is clearer than OTL.
 

Philip

Donor
If John III and John IV are more competent than Henry IV and Henry V, things might be different, if not, we just changed a few names and a few details of Brittany's history.
Gotcha.

It depends on if John III (or IV) are also kicked out of Brittany, and if a Montfort claimant still exists (and if supported by the Breton nobles).

The English Monarchs may retract their claim to France if they get to keep Brittany. A side effect could be continued autonomy for Brittany.
These tie together well. Suppose an alt-Treaty of Brétigny between England, France, and Brittany that

  1. Places Brittany under English suzerainty (IIRC, this was part of OTL 2nd Treaty of London).
  2. Edward renounces his claims on the French crown.
  3. France rejects Montfort's claim.
  4. Brittany not to be used as an English base for operations in France.
  5. English nobles not to receive lands in Brittany.
  6. Maybe some other territorial adjustments between France and England.
  7. Other terms and conditions?
Another thing to consider is what the lack of the War of the Roses does to England. Especially as the royal succession is clearer than OTL.
IIRC, WotR hit the nobility rather hard. Could this lead to a strong nobility, weaker crown and merchant class?
 
These tie together well. Suppose an alt-Treaty of Brétigny between England, France, and Brittany that

  1. Places Brittany under English suzerainty (IIRC, this was part of OTL 2nd Treaty of London).
  2. Edward renounces his claims on the French crown.
  3. France rejects Montfort's claim.
  4. Brittany not to be used as an English base for operations in France.
  5. English nobles not to receive lands in Brittany.
  6. Maybe some other territorial adjustments between France and England.
  7. Other terms and conditions?
Well, Aquitaine might not be as extensive (eg no Rouerge) and possibly Calais, Ponthieu and Guines might be returned to France.

IIRC, WotR hit the nobility rather hard. Could this lead to a strong nobility, weaker crown and merchant class?
Maybe, the merchant class had already been strengthened by the Black Death. And the Kings appeared to start using Parliament to counter the upper nobility.
The WotR highlighted that the King was already a strong position worth fighting over.
It did however thin out the non-Royal nobles competing with the King.

ITL we still have the Houses of *Lancaster and *York as alternate power bases to the King.
And the Duke of Lancaster has the role of Lord High Steward.

Perhaps Parliament is strengthened earlier than OTL?
 
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