Edward II dies in 1307, what next?

[VVD0D95]

This was borne from a discussion with @CaptainShadow , let's say in 1307, shortly after his father's death, Edward II of England falls ill and dies, what happens?

To make it easier, let's say he falls ill on his way back from Scotland and is in northern England when he dies. He's been crowned King, but he's not gone ahead with his marriage to Isabella of France.

Naturally, Thomas of Brotherton is now King of England, but he's only seven years old, and so would need a regency. One imagines his cousin Thomas, Earl of Lancaster would be the main member of that regency council as the King's closest male relative.

Does Thomas I marry or get betrothed to Isabella of France? The girl is his first cousin, so a dispensation will be required (will it be granted?) or does he get betrothed to someone else?

Otl Edward II immediately recalled Piers Gaveston from exile upon his ascension, and married him to Margaret Clare, however, Edward is now dead, so what does Gaveston do? If he turns up in England after Ned is dead, he's a dead man, so one imagines he might stay in exile and wait.

The war with Scotland may remain at peace, or the regency may decide to enact it to stamp out the Bruce threat, as Edward I intended on doing before he died.

Anything else?

@material_boy @CaptainShadow @Kellan Sullivan @ByzantineLover @isabella @The Professor @Derek Pullem @Ivan Lupo

 

[RedKing]

Has Edward III been born yet? Or any children of his? Because if not there’s going to be some struggle for the throne

 

[VVD0D95]

Has Edward III been born yet? Or any children of his? Because if not there’s going to be some struggle for the throne

Edward III and his siblings weren't born until the 1310s.

Thomas of Brotherton was Edward II's heir until Edward III was born, I don't think there will be any struggle for the throne.

 

[RedKing]

Just checked the wiki and the next in line to the throne is Thomas Brotherton

 

[RedKing]

Edward III and his siblings weren't born until the 1310s.

Thomas of Brotherton was Edward II's heir until Edward III was born, I don't think there will be any struggle for the throne.

Agreed, would Thomas marry Isabella of France ittl?

 

[isabella]

Agreed, would Thomas marry Isabella of France ittl?

They are first cousins so a match elsewhere is more likely

 

[VVD0D95]

Agreed, would Thomas marry Isabella of France ittl?

They are first cousins so a match elsewhere is more likely

As Isabella says, they're first cousins so a marriage is unlikely right now. Perhaps a marriage to Eleanor of Castile, daughter of Ferdinand IV, when she comes of age?

 

[RedKing]

Also the 100 Years war is butterflied away, though there could be some equivalent to it later down the line

 

[RedKing]

They are first cousins so a match elsewhere is more likely

As Isabella says, they're first cousins so a marriage is unlikely right now. Perhaps a marriage to Eleanor of Castile, daughter of Ferdinand IV, when she comes of age?

But why is it unlikely? Was it harder to get a Papal Dispensation back then?

 

[VVD0D95]

Also the 100 Years war is butterflied away, though there could be some equivalent to it later down the line

Possibly some discussion over Gascony I think

But why is it unlikely? Was it harder to get a Papal Dispensation back then?

The Papacy was a lot stricter about first cousin marriages back then

 

[RedKing]

Possibly some discussion over Gascony I think


The Papacy was a lot stricter about first cousin marriages back then

Oh okay, any ideas for a wife

 

[RedKing]

Might a son of Thomas marry Joan of Navarre?

 

[material_boy]

They are first cousins so a match elsewhere is more likely

I am inclined to disagree, unless you have more a specific thought here.

England was a bit of a mess by the end of Edward I's reign. The northern border had collapsed into lawlessness and there was a general disgust with the near-constant taxation to pay for the campaigns in Scotland and Wales. England could not afford war with France at this time, and the treaty that ended the war in Gascony had been sealed with the arrangement of Edward and Isabella's marriage. It would be very much in England's interest to see this marriage happen with Thomas in ATL. The question is whether Philip IV would want it.

Was it harder to get a Papal Dispensation back then?

The Papacy was a lot stricter about first cousin marriages back then

A papal dispensation would be no trouble at all. Clement V was firmly under Philip IV's thumb. If Philip wanted it, it would happen.

I think the real question here is whether Philip would want this. Edward II's death would present an opportunity to run England out of Gascony, though Philip was deeply embroiled in his campaign against the Knights Templar in 1307.

 

[RedKing]

I am inclined to disagree, unless you have more a specific thought here.

England was a bit of a mess by the end of Edward I's reign. The northern border had collapsed into lawlessness and there was a general disgust with the near-constant taxation to pay for the campaigns in Scotland and Wales. England could not afford war with France at this time, and the treaty that ended the war in Gascony had been sealed with the arrangement of Edward and Isabella's marriage. It would be very much in England's interest to see this marriage happen with Thomas in ATL. The question is whether Philip IV would want it.




A papal dispensation would be no trouble at all. Clement V was firmly under Philip IV's thumb. If Philip wanted it, it would happen.

I think the real question here is whether Philip would want this. Edward II's death would present an opportunity to run England out of Gascony, though Philip was deeply embroiled in his campaign against the Knights Templar in 1307.

True, my thinking was Isabella would be a good way to secure English holdings a form a non aggression pact with France so they stablize the realm and what not

 

[VVD0D95]

I am inclined to disagree, unless you have more a specific thought here.

England was a bit of a mess by the end of Edward I's reign. The northern border had collapsed into lawlessness and there was a general disgust with the near-constant taxation to pay for the campaigns in Scotland and Wales. England could not afford war with France at this time, and the treaty that ended the war in Gascony had been sealed with the arrangement of Edward and Isabella's marriage. It would be very much in England's interest to see this marriage happen with Thomas in ATL. The question is whether Philip IV would want it.




A papal dispensation would be no trouble at all. Clement V was firmly under Philip IV's thumb. If Philip wanted it, it would happen.

I think the real question here is whether Philip would want this. Edward II's death would present an opportunity to run England out of Gascony, though Philip was deeply embroiled in his campaign against the Knights Templar in 1307.

I think Philip was also racking up debt at this point wasn't he, so unless he wants to amass even more he may consider going for the peace option

 

[RedKing]

I am inclined to disagree, unless you have more a specific thought here.

England was a bit of a mess by the end of Edward I's reign. The northern border had collapsed into lawlessness and there was a general disgust with the near-constant taxation to pay for the campaigns in Scotland and Wales. England could not afford war with France at this time, and the treaty that ended the war in Gascony had been sealed with the arrangement of Edward and Isabella's marriage. It would be very much in England's interest to see this marriage happen with Thomas in ATL. The question is whether Philip IV would want it.




A papal dispensation would be no trouble at all. Clement V was firmly under Philip IV's thumb. If Philip wanted it, it would happen.

I think the real question here is whether Philip would want this. Edward II's death would present an opportunity to run England out of Gascony, though Philip was deeply embroiled in his campaign against the Knights Templar in 1307.

True, my thinking was Isabella would be a good way to secure English holdings a form a non aggression pact with France so they stablize the realm and what not

 

[material_boy]

I think Philip was also racking up debt at this point wasn't he, so unless he wants to amass even more he may consider going for the peace option

Indeed. His actions against the Knights Templar were motivated in no small part by his dire financial situation.

 

[isabella]

@material_boy @RedKing remember also who the new King of France is Philip’s own nephew.

 

[RedKing]

@material_boy @RedKing remember also who the new King of France is Philip’s own nephew.

Forgive me for not knowing, but what does that have to do with it? Unless you're saying Philip's nephew wants to marry Isabella to himself

 

[CaptainShadow]

@material_boy @RedKing remember also who the new King of France is Philip’s own nephew.

England*

And Thomas is half-french is there really a pressing need for a french match at this point of time? Phil's busy with the Templars, so war over Gascony etc may not be feared for the time being.

Also, Eleanor of Castile was Countess of Ponthieu suo jure, after E2 dies her heir is Edward I of Bar, so that might be a problem.