Edmund Tudor, third son of Henry VII, lives

And yet second sons pursuing a career in the church is hardly the most unthinkable of things, although usually not royals (as royal fathers can afford to endow multiple sons with lands).

But I'm not sure I'd go so far as to call it self-evident crap.

Bollocks aren't crap, they're round the other side of the body!

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
Bollocks aren't crap, they're round the other side of the body!

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

I'm an American, I'm entitled to use our jargon. :p

Besides, referring to someone not pursuing a career in the Church by virtue of that particular part is just a little too vivid an image for me.
 
And yet second sons pursuing a career in the church is hardly the most unthinkable of things,

For not just a king of that era, a king with a fairly shaky claim to the throne, it defies all political logic. It defies everything we know about Henry VII's judgement and character. It defies the established conventions of the era, when it was usually bastard sons or those way down the pecking order who were shunted into the church, such as Cardinal Beaufort, who was himself a rarity. It's illiterate of the fact that education had become fashionable amongst the nobility in the 15th century, and therefore there was nothing especially exceptional about Henry VIII's good education, it was simply a by-product of the times.

There is literally no good reason for supposing Henry VIII was destined for a church career.
 
For not just a king of that era, a king with a fairly shaky claim to the throne, it defies all political logic. It defies everything we know about Henry VII's judgement and character. It defies the established conventions of the era, when it was usually bastard sons or those way down the pecking order who were shunted into the church, such as Cardinal Beaufort, who was himself a rarity. It's illiterate of the fact that education had become fashionable amongst the nobility in the 15th century, and therefore there was nothing especially exceptional about Henry VIII's good education, it was simply a by-product of the times.

There is literally no good reason for supposing Henry VIII was destined for a church career.

This bolded part is the most convincing element, I think. The intended fate of his sons is going to be heavily weighed by Henry VII's own judgment and attitudes.
 
You've all missed something. If Edmund lives and becomes king after the death of Edward VI then his heirs become the Royal House. This means that there is no Virgin Queen and consequently no Stuart succesion. You have just stopped the Union of the Crowns and hence the creation of the United Kingdom of Great Britain. No Civil War, No Commonwealth under Cromwell, potentially no settlement of North America. With the absence of Bloody Mary on the Thrown the Reformation in Ireland might stick, meaning there would be no Plantation or subsequent rebellions bu the Native Irish. Without the religious element in Irish politics the Irish parliament would continue to develope in parralel with westminster with the franchise gradually been extended further into the population. No need for the Act of Union to reign in the Protestant land owners and hopefully prevent more rebellions.
 
And yet second sons pursuing a career in the church is hardly the most unthinkable of things, although usually not royals (as royal fathers can afford to endow multiple sons with lands).

But I'm not sure I'd go so far as to call it self-evident crap.

The only previous example I can think of where a son of a monarch was prepared for a clerical career was Henry I, who was given the education in order to be made a bishop, but deaths and ambition got in the way. Even John 'Lackland' wasn't sent to the church, but used to secure alliances.
 
The only previous example I can think of where a son of a monarch was prepared for a clerical career was Henry I, who was given the education in order to be made a bishop, but deaths and ambition got in the way. Even John 'Lackland' wasn't sent to the church, but used to secure alliances.

I know that it was Louis VIII's intent that his youngest sons (such as the one who became Charles of Anjou) be sent to the church, but it didn't work out that way (their older brothers dying and thus rendering this moot).

Philip of Swabia, one of Frederick Barbarossa's sons, was prepared for and even had a (short) ecclesiastical career.

I think some of Henry IV's half brothers were also involved in the church, but technically this would be ducal sons, as John of Gaunt was never king.

That's what comes to mind off the top of my head.
 
I know that it was Louis VIII's intent that his youngest sons (such as the one who became Charles of Anjou) be sent to the church, but it didn't work out that way (their older brothers dying and thus rendering this moot).

Philip of Swabia, one of Frederick Barbarossa's sons, was prepared for and even had a (short) ecclesiastical career.

I think some of Henry IV's half brothers were also involved in the church, but technically this would be ducal sons, as John of Gaunt was never king.

That's what comes to mind off the top of my head.


I meant English monarchs specifically, and you're right about Henry IV's brothers, Henry Beaufort was a cardinal. Henry II also had a bastard made Archbishop of York - which is actually a useful way to stop illegitimate children challenging your legitimate offspring. But that's it as far as I know.
 
I meant English monarchs specifically, and you're right about Henry IV's brothers, Henry Beaufort was a cardinal. Henry II also had a bastard made Archbishop of York - which is actually a useful way to stop illegitimate children challenging your legitimate offspring. But that's it as far as I know.

Fair enough.

So this raises a question: If the church isn't pursued by Edmund (or Henry in Arthur Lives scenarios), what then?

I suspect Edmund will be relevant to affairs of state under his brother, though as what is a good question.
 
Desmond Hume said:
Related to your point (a), could having a second spare son somehow make it less urgent for Henry VII to hang on to the Spanish marriage? Catherine might well go back to Spain a widow and future-Henry VIII would marry someone else ITTL.
I once read that Henry VII wanted to keep the dowry of Catherine of Aragon. I even read that he thought of marrying her himself at one point but Isabella the Catholic (Catherine's mother) said no, so he proposed his second son and now heir, Henry. If this is true, then I don't think Henry VII will want Catherine to go back to Spain and he will still go with the "back up" plan of marrying Catherine to Henry.
 
Wasn't the marriage to Eleanor of Austria only on the table after Arthur's death, on Philip of Burgundy's proposal (to thwart Ferdinand)? Considering the Trastamara weren't most happy to marry their youngest daughter to the lowly Tudor, I doubt the Habsburg would be jumping through hoops to marry their eldest to a second son - at a time when the Tudors were expected to be kicked off the throne at any moment.

As for Catherine, she wasn't returned to Ferdinand because Henry didn't want to return what had been paid of her dowry. Perhaps if rich marriages for both Henry (VIII) and Edmund are found, then it becomes easier to let go of Catherine and her dowry...?

If Edmund survived, who would be the most likely brides for him? A Portuguese infanta? Or an English heiress like Anne Bourchier?
 
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