Edmund Mortimer, 5th Earl of March

A little of column A a little of column B. In short, I don't know.

Aha fair fair.

I was wondering, with what you've written, how does one keep the peace between the three factions? Edmund remaining loyal I can see, but what happens regarding the war party when France is lost? In otl, that was what pushed York into rebellion, does Mortimer spend time trying to balance out the Beauforts as well as Suffolk?
 
Aha fair fair.

I was wondering, with what you've written, how does one keep the peace between the three factions? Edmund remaining loyal I can see, but what happens regarding the war party when France is lost? In otl, that was what pushed York into rebellion, does Mortimer spend time trying to balance out the Beauforts as well as Suffolk?

The families of Beaufort and de Mortimer are fairly well connected in this timeline. Henry's mother and step grandmother were both Beauforts. However, the house of Suffolk is mildly rebellious, but realises that the York is currently now led by the child Edward of York and his mother, the Lady Elizabeth Woodville. So Suffolk is spending the early days of de Mortimers reign attempting to take the second highest position in the court from the family of York.
 
The families of Beaufort and de Mortimer are fairly well connected in this timeline. Henry's mother and step grandmother were both Beauforts. However, the house of Suffolk is mildly rebellious, but realises that the York is currently now led by the child Edward of York and his mother, the Lady Elizabeth Woodville. So Suffolk is spending the early days of de Mortimers reign attempting to take the second highest position in the court from the family of York.

Okay so William de la pole is not executed?
 
Edward, 4th Duke of York and 5th Earl of Cambridge (b.1442: d.1479) m. Elizabeth Wydeville (b.1437: d.1492) (a)

1a) Elizabeth of York (b.1466: d.1511) m. Thomas de Mortimer, 2nd Earl of Leicester (b.1465: d.1494) (a)

1a) Joan de Mortimer (b.1484)

2a) Edmund de Mortimer, 3rd Earl of Leicester (b.1487)

3a) Miscarriage (c.1491)

4a) Cecily de Mortimer (b.1492: d.1493)

5a) Sir Edward de Mortimer (b.1495)​

2a) Mary of York (b.1467: d.1500) m. Edmund de Ros, 10th Baron de Ros (b.1455: d.1508) (a)

1a) Joan de Ros (b.1485)

2a) Eleanor de Ros (b.1488: d.1490)

3a) Miscarriage (c.1490)

4a) Edward de Ros, 11th Baron de Ros (b.1491)

5a) Miscarriage (c.1493)

6a) Henry de Ros (b.1496: d.1499)

7a) William de Ros (b.1498)

8a) Miscarriage (c.1499)

9a) Philippa de Ros (b.1500)​

3a) Cecily of York (b.1469: d.1514) m. Henry Beaufort, 3rd Duke of Somerset (b.1436: d.1501) (a)

1a) Edmund Beaufort, 4th Duke of Somerset (b.1484)

2a) Catherine Beaufort (b.1487: d.1491)

3a) Thomas Beaufort (b.1489)

4a) Miscarriage (c.1490)

5a) Robert Beaufort (b.1492: d.1494)

6a) Joan Beaufort (b.1495)

7a) Lionel Beaufort (b.1496)

8a) Miscarriage (c.1499)​

4a) Edward of York, 5th Duke of York and 6th Earl of Cambridge (b.1470: d.1529) m. Margaret of York (b.1473: d.1549) (a)

1a) Richard of York (b.1491: d.1498)

2a) Geoffrey of York, 6th Duke of York and 7th Earl of Cambridge (b.1493)

3a) Miscarriage (c.1494)

4a) Thomas of York (b.1496)

5a) Lionel of York (b.1499)

6a) Elizabeth of York (b.1501: d.1502)

7a) Arthur of York (b.1503)

8a) Joan of York (b.1505)​

5a) Margaret of York (b.1472: d.1472)

6a) Richard of York (b.1473: d.1529) m. Anne de Mowbray, 8th Countess of Norfolk (b.1472: d.1499) (a)

1a) Edmund of York, 5th Duke of Norfolk (b.1490)

2a) Edward of York (b.1492: d.1494)

3a) Elizabeth of York (b.1493)

4a) Miscarriage (c.1495)

5a) John of York (b.1497)

6a) Miscarriage (c.1499)​

7a) Anne of York (b.1475: d.1541) m. Ralph Scrope, 9th Baron Scrope of Masham (c.1450/1460: d.1515) (a)

1a) Ursula Scrope (b.1496)

2a) Thomas Scrope, 10th Baron Scrope of Masham (b.1497)

3a) Roger Scrope (b.1499)

4a) Jane Scrope (b.1500)

5a) Dorothy Scrope (b.1501: d.1501)

6a) Edgar Scrope (b.1503)​

8a) George of York (b.1477: d.1479)

9a) Catherine of York (b.1479: d.1515) m. John Welles, 1st Viscount Welles (b.1450: d.1498) (a), George Nevill, 5th Baron Bergavenny (b.1469: d.1535) (b)

1a) Henry Welles, 2nd Viscount Welles (b.1497)

2a) Sir Edward Welles (b.1499)

3b) Jane Nevill (b.1503)

4b) Thomas Nevill, 6th Baron Bergavenny (b.1504)

5b) Lionel Nevill (b.1507: d.1509)

6b) Miscarriage (c.1509)

7b) Richard Nevill (b.1510)

8b) Mary Nevill (b.1513)​
 
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Elizabeth Woodville. I wanted to keep things like that as butterfly-free as possible.

Say what????

Edward of York's meeting with Elizabeth Woodville, and her being eligible, were direct consequences of the first part of the War of the Roses happening as they did.

Even if one eliminates all butterfly effects (which is bogus anyway), one cannot ignore major knock-ons. Otherwise one winds up raising a stupid proposition like: If the Confederacy had won independence, Hughes would have defeated Wilson in the 1916 election.

Here's one obvious reason why Edward would not marry the Woodville: his father would still be alive, and would forbid it. She was not quite as unsuitable for a duke's heir as for the king, but sufficiently so that the marriage would be impossible unless Edward was free to act on his infatuation.

I might add that removing Elizabeth's marriage to King Edward also means that her many ambitious siblings will not marry such important nobles as the heir of the Duke of Buckingham, Viscount Bourchier (heir to the Earl of Essex), the heir of the Earl of Kent, the heiress of Baron Scales, the Earl of Arundel, or the Dowager Duchess of Norfolk.
 
Say what????

Edward of York's meeting with Elizabeth Woodville, and her being eligible, were direct consequences of the first part of the War of the Roses happening as they did.

Even if one eliminates all butterfly effects (which is bogus anyway), one cannot ignore major knock-ons. Otherwise one winds up raising a stupid proposition like: If the Confederacy had won independence, Hughes would have defeated Wilson in the 1916 election.

Here's one obvious reason why Edward would not marry the Woodville: his father would still be alive, and would forbid it. She was not quite as unsuitable for a duke's heir as for the king, but sufficiently so that the marriage would be impossible unless Edward was free to act on his infatuation.

I might add that removing Elizabeth's marriage to King Edward also means that her many ambitious siblings will not marry such important nobles as the heir of the Duke of Buckingham, Viscount Bourchier (heir to the Earl of Essex), the heir of the Earl of Kent, the heiress of Baron Scales, the Earl of Arundel, or the Dowager Duchess of Norfolk.

So whom might be a possible bride for the heir to the Dukedom of York?
 
Actually it might butterfly Elizabeth's birth completely - there's no guarantee in a surviving Mortimer line would mean a marriage between Jacquetta St Pol and the Duke of Bedford and her subsequent remarriage.

On the Wydeville marriages one point - Anthony Woodville married the Scales heiress long before Elizabeth married Edward. Her sister had also already married Lord Strange.

The Bourchier's were connected to the Grey's and were obviously related to the house of York so might have still fallen into the Wydeville circle anyway.

Incidentally without a battle in the 1450s you have lots of people living to fight another day including Elizabeth first husband Lord Grey.


Say what????

Edward of York's meeting with Elizabeth Woodville, and her being eligible, were direct consequences of the first part of the War of the Roses happening as they did.

Even if one eliminates all butterfly effects (which is bogus anyway), one cannot ignore major knock-ons. Otherwise one winds up raising a stupid proposition like: If the Confederacy had won independence, Hughes would have defeated Wilson in the 1916 election.

Here's one obvious reason why Edward would not marry the Woodville: his father would still be alive, and would forbid it. She was not quite as unsuitable for a duke's heir as for the king, but sufficiently so that the marriage would be impossible unless Edward was free to act on his infatuation.

I might add that removing Elizabeth's marriage to King Edward also means that her many ambitious siblings will not marry such important nobles as the heir of the Duke of Buckingham, Viscount Bourchier (heir to the Earl of Essex), the heir of the Earl of Kent, the heiress of Baron Scales, the Earl of Arundel, or the Dowager Duchess of Norfolk.
 
Actually it might butterfly Elizabeth's birth completely - there's no guarantee in a surviving Mortimer line would mean a marriage between Jacquetta St Pol and the Duke of Bedford and her subsequent remarriage.

On the Wydeville marriages one point - Anthony Woodville married the Scales heiress long before Elizabeth married Edward. Her sister had also already married Lord Strange.

The Bourchier's were connected to the Grey's and were obviously related to the house of York so might have still fallen into the Wydeville circle anyway.

Incidentally without a battle in the 1450s you have lots of people living to fight another day including Elizabeth first husband Lord Grey.


Could Edmund's survival potentially butterfly the death of Bedford and Gloucester?
 
One of Warwick's daughters seems likely. Or a Mortimer girl, or Stafford, Percy, Mowbray, Howard, or Stanley. Or a Beaufort; there's no dispute to engender bad blood.

Hmm very true, very true. Although technically with regard to Beaufort, Richard Duke of York would likely still despise them if they were as incompetent as in otl
 
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