Ebionite/Jewish Christianity triumphs over Pauline Christianity

I first made a thread wondering what would've happened if Christianity got rid of all its Jewish roots (Marcionism).

Now this thread is about the opposite. What if Christianity was a completely Jewish movement? What if no gentiles became Christian, or if they did, they had to get circumcised and follow all Jewish law?

In terms of religion, I guess doctrines such as the trinity, original sin, the virgin birth, eternal damnation, etc. probably wouldn't exist; Paul would be all but forgotten; and Jesus would be considered the Messiah but not God or the (biological) son of God.

What would happen to history if the Ebionite/Nazarene sects became the main form of Christianity?
 
In that case, Christianity would be MUCH smaller, less able to win converts than, let's say, Mithraism? or Sol Invictus?

for that to happen, it is likely that you would need to kill off most, it not all Pauline Christians because even from a very few, they are adaptable enough to expand faster by adapting the local culture...


then again, I am no expert in Early Christianity
 
I agree with Pegasus- Christianity without Paul is not Christianity as we know it. Paul essentially took a small Messianic Jewish sect and constructed a very marketable religion that would develop into what we would recognise as Christianity. Without Paul, Christianity would just be another radical Jewish sect.
 
The Jewish Christians would have to make their movement more relevant to all Jews after the sack of Jerusalem. Seeing how Rabbinic Judaism won out in OTL, I doubt they could survive beyond a tiny sect that will be exiled somewhere by the Romans.
 
I first made a thread wondering what would've happened if Christianity got rid of all its Jewish roots (Marcionism).

Now this thread is about the opposite. What if Christianity was a completely Jewish movement? What if no gentiles became Christian, or if they did, they had to get circumcised and follow all Jewish law?

In terms of religion, I guess doctrines such as the trinity, original sin, the virgin birth, eternal damnation, etc. probably wouldn't exist; Paul would be all but forgotten; and Jesus would be considered the Messiah but not God or the (biological) son of God.

What would happen to history if the Ebionite/Nazarene sects became the main form of Christianity?

I wouldn't think Christianity would be very large if it were restricted to only Jewish converts. If you want it to stand a chance at all, you would need a "No Paul, No Council Of Jerusalem" TL. The OTL Council of Jerusalem, as depicted in Acts at least, means Gentile converts only have to abstain from "things polluted by idols, and from fornication, and from whatever has been strangled and from blood". If you somehow make it so the Council decides to force Gentiles to observe Jewish law, you may have more than a tiny persecuted Jewish sect. Then again, there were small groups Gentiles sympathetic to Judaism called "God-fearers" already.

The "birth stories" are in the Gospels of Matthew and Luke. Since the Gospels are commonly thought to have been written after the destruction of the Second Temple, your POD could well make them disappear. John, which is seen as portraying Jesus as God in chapter 1, is of an even later origin than the other canonical Gospels, so that would go too.

"Original sin" as we know it is an Augustinian concept from the 5th century or so.

As for eternal damnation, one can interpret some Old Testament sections as endorsing this belief, so the Gospels are not needed for this belief to arise. One example is Isaiah 66:24 "And they shall go out and look at the dead bodies of the people who have rebelled against me; for their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh."

I hope this helps! :)

EDIT: The name Ebionites sounded oddly familiar to me. It turns out that I remembered it from a book I used once in college called The Complete Gospels edited by Robert J. Miller. It has a "Gospel of the Ebionites". I recommend this book, since you seem interested in "heterodox" Christianities.
 
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As for eternal damnation, one can interpret some Old Testament sections as endorsing this belief, so the Gospels are not needed for this belief to arise. One example is Isaiah 66:24 "And they shall go out and look at the dead bodies of the people who have rebelled against me; for their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh."

Considering OTL Judaism rejects the existence of hell (or at least the hell Christians believe in), I thought that concept wouldn't arise.
 
Considering OTL Judaism rejects the existence of hell (or at least the hell Christians believe in), I thought that concept wouldn't arise.

Yes, modern Judaism rejects hell. Then again, modern Judaism is based on the teachings of the rabbis, who descended from the Pharisee tradition. There were other threads running through 1st century Judaism such as the Sadducees, who rejected the idea of resurrection and the Oral Torah, and the apocalyptic Essene branch. The Essenes died out when they revolted against Rome, and the Sadducees had nowhere to go once the Second Temple was destroyed (they were the most "temple focused" sect). I referenced Josephus's Jewish Antiquities Book 13, Chapter 10, and Book 18 Chapter 1 for the doctrinal difference between Second Temple era Jewish sects, though this distinction can also be found in the Gospel of Mark if you prefer.

It is likely that Jesus's enemies were Sadducees more than Pharisees (Matthew 23 has a positive view of Pharisee ideals if not their practice), so a Jewish Christian view will probably reject the Sadducees.


Judaism was far from united during this time period, so I can believe that the Judaized Christians might have a different interpretation from the branch that became dominant OTL.
 
I agree with Pegasus- Christianity without Paul is not Christianity as we know it. Paul essentially took a small Messianic Jewish sect and constructed a very marketable religion that would develop into what we would recognise as Christianity. Without Paul, Christianity would just be another radical Jewish sect.

But some centuries later Islam was able to get many converts. It seems to me that Islam was strongly influenced by the Ebionites, as they accepted Jesus as a prophet, while not accepting Pauline Christianity.
 
I hope the Isis cult become large instead of Christianity.

The problem with this kind of cults is that the Isis Cult and others where mystery religions, cults of the initiated and all... not made for grand public faiths, I fear. Or so I heard.

And frankly, Christianity offer much the same deal to a point perhaps had they been able to competition on egal grounds.
 
Mithraism is also a mystery cult. So are Momonism and Freemasons. Being somewhat of a mystery cult did not stop them from getting millions of followers. Isis would have an advantage in that it allowed women .
 
Mithraism is also a mystery cult. So are Momonism and Freemasons. Being somewhat of a mystery cult did not stop them from getting millions of followers. Isis would have an advantage in that it allowed women .

Granted, albeit Mithraism had something for it that the Isis cult hadn't - support from peoples of a key imperial institution, the army. However, the Cult of Isis not, and women in those days, well... As far I got it, the Isis Cult have that 'women and slaves and commoners' scorned bit of Christianism, without...

But Christianism however was arguably universal, open to conversion for all. It had a big advantage over Isis Cult.

The Isis Cult may don't have a chance in the long run between those two, AND things as Stoicism and Neoplatonism - spiritualities of intelectual elites.
 
I first made a thread wondering what would've happened if Christianity got rid of all its Jewish roots (Marcionism).

Now this thread is about the opposite. What if Christianity was a completely Jewish movement? What if no gentiles became Christian, or if they did, they had to get circumcised and follow all Jewish law?

In terms of religion, I guess doctrines such as the trinity, original sin, the virgin birth, eternal damnation, etc. probably wouldn't exist; Paul would be all but forgotten; and Jesus would be considered the Messiah but not God or the (biological) son of God.

What would happen to history if the Ebionite/Nazarene sects became the main form of Christianity?
I actually don't agree. Original sin could certainly go, as it was a latish doctrine in the version as it exists. But the others date WAY back, and don't have much/anything to do with Paul.

I agree with Pegasus- Christianity without Paul is not Christianity as we know it. Paul essentially took a small Messianic Jewish sect and constructed a very marketable religion that would develop into what we would recognise as Christianity. Without Paul, Christianity would just be another radical Jewish sect.
Agreed, to some extent. OTOH, if they DO go with the Trinity, etc., and create a New Testament, they'll be a highly heretical Jewish sect, at best.

I wouldn't think Christianity would be very large if it were restricted to only Jewish converts.
No one said anything about only taking Jewish converts. The argument was whether Christian converts had to BECOME Jewish as part of the conversion (circumcision and the like).
If you want it to stand a chance at all, you would need a "No Paul, No Council Of Jerusalem" TL. The OTL Council of Jerusalem, as depicted in Acts at least, means Gentile converts only have to abstain from "things polluted by idols, and from fornication, and from whatever has been strangled and from blood". If you somehow make it so the Council decides to force Gentiles to observe Jewish law, you may have more than a tiny persecuted Jewish sect. Then again, there were small groups Gentiles sympathetic to Judaism called "God-fearers" already.
1) the Council of Jerusalem took the stand it did after fierce lobbying by Paul. Ya, what they ended up with is probably what Peter wanted, but without Paul, James and some of the other Judaisizers would have pulled Christianity back to the Jewish roots. You'd probably get a 'compromise' like "you can baptize uncircumcised men, but they can't be full members without circumcision" or some such. Oh, and ALL male babies certainly have to be circumcised. Also, the version of kosher might well be relaxed to Biblical rather than Rabinical standards (meat vs milk is from a single, out of context verse, for instance, and might be dropped).
2) Christianity, even if it keeps simplified versions of Jewish laws is still more attractive (personal salvation, etc.) to many than pure Judaism. (OK, the pure, clean call of Judaism is more attractive to some, still). I think this 'Jesus cult' of Judaism would be somewhat more popular than regular Judaism among Gentiles, and thus it would grow faster.
3) Do note that Judaism was making large inroads in the Gentile community before Christianity arrived. iOTL, Christianity swallowed most of those, and lots more. iTTL, I think both 'Jesus' Jews and 'pure' Jews make significant numbers of converts.
The "birth stories" are in the Gospels of Matthew and Luke. Since the Gospels are commonly thought to have been written after the destruction of the Second Temple, your POD could well make them disappear. John, which is seen as portraying Jesus as God in chapter 1, is of an even later origin than the other canonical Gospels, so that would go too.
Please note that Matthew was the Gospel written to Jewish Christians. I don't think it would change much if Paul weren't around, as it wasn't written to his audience.

Again, references to the Holy Spirit are a really major part of the story, Pentecost and after. Father, Son and Holy Spirit are definitely well established without Paul. Established as what, now that's a good question. It is certainly POSSIBLE to get a 'Trinity' that's not a Triune Godhead, but rather the three most important parts of the faith 1) God, 2) his messengers the Spirit and the Son, followed with a bit of separation by 3) Archangels, 4) Apostles (or in reverse order), etc.

It's also possible, I'd argue probable that the Trinity as Triune Godhead arises even if the Judaizers get their way.
 
No one said anything about only taking Jewish converts. The argument was whether Christian converts had to BECOME Jewish as part of the conversion (circumcision and the like).

1) the Council of Jerusalem took the stand it did after fierce lobbying by Paul. Ya, what they ended up with is probably what Peter wanted, but without Paul, James and some of the other Judaisizers would have pulled Christianity back to the Jewish roots. You'd probably get a 'compromise' like "you can baptize uncircumcised men, but they can't be full members without circumcision" or some such. Oh, and ALL male babies certainly have to be circumcised. Also, the version of kosher might well be relaxed to Biblical rather than Rabinical standards (meat vs milk is from a single, out of context verse, for instance, and might be dropped).
2) Christianity, even if it keeps simplified versions of Jewish laws is still more attractive (personal salvation, etc.) to many than pure Judaism. (OK, the pure, clean call of Judaism is more attractive to some, still). I think this 'Jesus cult' of Judaism would be somewhat more popular than regular Judaism among Gentiles, and thus it would grow faster.
3) Do note that Judaism was making large inroads in the Gentile community before Christianity arrived. iOTL, Christianity swallowed most of those, and lots more. iTTL, I think both 'Jesus' Jews and 'pure' Jews make significant numbers of converts.

Please note that Matthew was the Gospel written to Jewish Christians. I don't think it would change much if Paul weren't around, as it wasn't written to his audience.

Again, references to the Holy Spirit are a really major part of the story, Pentecost and after. Father, Son and Holy Spirit are definitely well established without Paul. Established as what, now that's a good question. It is certainly POSSIBLE to get a 'Trinity' that's not a Triune Godhead, but rather the three most important parts of the faith 1) God, 2) his messengers the Spirit and the Son, followed with a bit of separation by 3) Archangels, 4) Apostles (or in reverse order), etc.

It's also possible, I'd argue probable that the Trinity as Triune Godhead arises even if the Judaizers get their way.

Okay, I misunderstood the OP. That was stupid of me; a quick look at Galatians would have summed up what the OP was asking about! :eek:

So Jewish Christianity would be larger than I thought, but probably not as big as OTL Christianity. Many of the "heterodox" Christian sects that had some success tried to distance themselves from Judaism, because many Gentiles took issue with the Old Testament (e.g. Marcionite). And yes, I have heard of the "God-fearing" Gentiles.

As for the Trinity, I still don't think it would be as dominant as it would OTL without John. This may be a strange example, but the Jehovah's Witnesses tracts often lay out anti-Trinitarian arguments filled with biblical quotations. Most of them had a conspicuous absence of John 1 (though their interpretation of it may be in some writing I'm not familiar with). The Protestants I'm familiar with use John 1 as their main argument for the Trinitarian position. If the Gospel of John is butterflied, I think you're going to end up with ideas more similar to the Arians than the Athanasians. Or you might end up with more of a Mormon "united in purpose" type of Trinity. Not having any other timelines to personally experience, the rest is up to the writer. :)

(The Jehovah's Witnesses sometimes left tracts at one of my former workplaces)
 
Europeans will not Eat Pork if Christianity is More Jewish

Albanians and Bosnians will not Eat Pork at all too also


There are Christian Europeans that they Don't Eat Pork

Scottish and Icelandic People are Don't Eat Pork
 
I agree with Pegasus- Christianity without Paul is not Christianity as we know it. Paul essentially took a small Messianic Jewish sect and constructed a very marketable religion that would develop into what we would recognise as Christianity. Without Paul, Christianity would just be another radical Jewish sect.

But how successful would it be as a Jewish sect compared to other groups?
 
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