Eastern roman empire invades vandals through libya

girld22

Banned
Ive always wondered why didnt the eastern Roman empire like when they took over africa simply invaded the Vandals by take a large army though egypt and then marching towards carthage. The way i see it its a lot better then sending ships and risking chance what do you guys think
 
Travelling by ship is a lot quicker and easier than walking hundreds of miles through the desert.
 
Not talking about Berbers and mountainous warfare that would be serious issues if Byzzies were to attack by land; or about how it would have meant to form an army in the northern part of the Empire (many being Thracian, Greeks, even some northern people tributary to Constantinople), make them cross the Mediterranean to reach Egypt and then attack trough Libya.

Romans had an advantage, bigger fleet, and it would have been preposterous to not use it when it was clearly the most easy way.
 
Besides the enormous logistical problems to be managed (as a minimum a fleet is required to carry supplies), bringing troops in by sea would have also the advantage of surprise.
 
Besides the enormous logistical problems to be managed (as a minimum a fleet is required to carry supplies), bringing troops in by sea would have also the advantage of surprise.

That said, I don't see many closer targets for Byzantine fleet in western Mediterranean basin critically when they were allowed by Ostrogoths to use Sicily as a naval base.
A big fleet, departing from a neighboring island and having carried ca 15 000 men from Aegean isn't going to be a big surprise element for long ;)
 
That said, I don't see many closer targets for Byzantine fleet in western Mediterranean basin critically when they were allowed by Ostrogoths to use Sicily as a naval base.
A big fleet, departing from a neighboring island and having carried ca 15 000 men from Aegean isn't going to be a big surprise element for long ;)

Belisarius certainly needs a secure basis within striking distance from Africa, to obtain supplies of food and water and also to gather together all stragglers: without Gothic assistance he would have no real chance (barring maybe using Malta - was it already deserted by early 6th century?).

IIRC, another advantage he gained by landing in Sicily was obtaining fresh news about the situation in the Vandal kingdom (including the good news that the Vandal fleet was off on a punitive expedition: if the Byzantine fleet had met the Vandal fleet at sea it would have been a disaster)
 
(barring maybe using Malta - was it already deserted by early 6th century?).
I don't think so, but I don't think you had enough naval features or the supplies of food and water you fairly pointed as necessary. Besides, being in Vandal control (while it could have been easily taken ) would have damaged the existing few infrastructures.

(including the good news that the Vandal fleet was off on a punitive expedition: if the Byzantine fleet had met the Vandal fleet at sea it would have been a disaster)
Didn't Justinian was perfectly aware of such rebellions before the departure of the expedition as he supported them at least diplomatically?

Quoting the Wikipedia
"Although Procopius' narrative makes both uprisings seem coincidental, Ian Hughes points out the fact that both rebellions broke out shortly before the commencement of the Roman expedition against the Vandals, and that both Godas and Pudentius immediately asked for assistance from Justinian, as evidence of an active diplomatic involvement by the Emperor in their preparation"

My point was the Byzantine invasion had many advantages, but certainly not the surprise one : such an expedition, with these preparations are likely to provoke at least some rumors.
 
I don't think so, but I don't think you had enough naval features or the supplies of food and water you fairly pointed as necessary. Besides, being in Vandal control (while it could have been easily taken ) would have damaged the existing few infrastructures.


Didn't Justinian was perfectly aware of such rebellions before the departure of the expedition as he supported them at least diplomatically?

Quoting the Wikipedia
"Although Procopius' narrative makes both uprisings seem coincidental, Ian Hughes points out the fact that both rebellions broke out shortly before the commencement of the Roman expedition against the Vandals, and that both Godas and Pudentius immediately asked for assistance from Justinian, as evidence of an active diplomatic involvement by the Emperor in their preparation"

My point was the Byzantine invasion had many advantages, but certainly not the surprise one : such an expedition, with these preparations are likely to provoke at least some rumors.

as a matter of fact, the same article you mentioned says that

Belisarius sent Procopius ahead to Syracuse to gather intelligence on the Vandals' activities. By chance, Procopius met a merchant friend of his there, whose servant had just arrived from Carthage. The latter informed Procopius that not only were the Vandals were unaware of Belisarius' sailing, but that Gelimer, who had just dispatched Tzazon's expedition to Sardinia, was away from Carthage at the small inland town of Hermione

Now Procopius was possibly not the most reliable writer of histories (since he had always his own agenda and loved to boast of his own achievements) but this piece of information makes a lot of sense: Gelimer was no Genseric or Theoderic, but he would have not dispatched the fleet and the best fighting men to Sardinia if he had some inklings of this naval expedition, nor would have left Carthage for Hermione.

I do agree that the rebellions in Sardinia and Tripolitania might have been aided and abetted by Justinian (and a small fighting force under Cyril was sent to Sardinia at the same time), and it is on the record that Justinian had been exchanging letters with Gelimer, mostly asking that the former Vandal king Hilderic be reinstated on the throne or at least permitted to go to Constantinople. However it takes a lot to go from this mild exchange of letters to the actual invasion of Africa. The Vandals were certainly not expecting any kind of landing, and they were both remembering what happened when the ERE tried to invade Africa in 568 and aware of the strong opposition in Constantinople to any kind of military adventure in the western Mediterranean.

IMHO the expedition led by Belisarius came as a complete surprise to Gelimer and the Vandals, it was the only practical way to send an expedition force so far from Constantinople and the Gothic support in Sicily (certainly negotiated in advance) was a necessary condition to launch the invasion.
 

katchen

Banned
Does anybody remember the news footage of the war to defeat Muumar Gafaffi? About that seesaw battle around the Gulf of Sidra between Bengazi and Misurata? Miles and miles of next to nothing with a few towns around water here and there?
Now think about what it's like to bring an ancient army through there at ten miles or so per day with Berbers attacking and water maybe once a week. That's why Darius didn't attack Carthage from Egypt and why Justinian attacked Carthage by sea.
 

elkarlo

Banned
Does anybody remember the news footage of the war to defeat Muumar Gafaffi? About that seesaw battle around the Gulf of Sidra between Bengazi and Misurata? Miles and miles of next to nothing with a few towns around water here and there?
Now think about what it's like to bring an ancient army through there at ten miles or so per day with Berbers attacking and water maybe once a week. That's why Darius didn't attack Carthage from Egypt and why Justinian attacked Carthage by sea.

Libya has gotten drier iirc. Used to have more agricultural and rain me thinks
 
as a matter of fact, the same article you mentioned says that

Belisarius sent Procopius ahead to Syracuse to gather intelligence on the Vandals' activities. By chance, Procopius met a merchant friend of his there, whose servant had just arrived from Carthage. The latter informed Procopius that not only were the Vandals were unaware of Belisarius' sailing, but that Gelimer, who had just dispatched Tzazon's expedition to Sardinia, was away from Carthage at the small inland town of Hermione

Now Procopius was possibly not the most reliable writer of histories (since he had always his own agenda and loved to boast of his own achievements) but this piece of information makes a lot of sense: Gelimer was no Genseric or Theoderic, but he would have not dispatched the fleet and the best fighting men to Sardinia if he had some inklings of this naval expedition, nor would have left Carthage for Hermione.

I do agree that the rebellions in Sardinia and Tripolitania might have been aided and abetted by Justinian (and a small fighting force under Cyril was sent to Sardinia at the same time), and it is on the record that Justinian had been exchanging letters with Gelimer, mostly asking that the former Vandal king Hilderic be reinstated on the throne or at least permitted to go to Constantinople. However it takes a lot to go from this mild exchange of letters to the actual invasion of Africa. The Vandals were certainly not expecting any kind of landing, and they were both remembering what happened when the ERE tried to invade Africa in 568 and aware of the strong opposition in Constantinople to any kind of military adventure in the western Mediterranean.

IMHO the expedition led by Belisarius came as a complete surprise to Gelimer and the Vandals, it was the only practical way to send an expedition force so far from Constantinople and the Gothic support in Sicily (certainly negotiated in advance) was a necessary condition to launch the invasion.

Which, I think,would lend itself to an interesting WI, in and of itself: What If: Gelimer gets tipped off about the invasion and has a chance to mount a competent defense, and repel the initial invasion. Getting a black eye early on might dissuade Justinian of any further adventures in he West, and the resulting victory over the Byzantines would certainly give Gelimer some much needed prestige and legitimacy.
 
Which, I think,would lend itself to an interesting WI, in and of itself: What If: Gelimer gets tipped off about the invasion and has a chance to mount a competent defense, and repel the initial invasion. Getting a black eye early on might dissuade Justinian of any further adventures in he West, and the resulting victory over the Byzantines would certainly give Gelimer some much needed prestige and legitimacy.

Given the amount of opposition to the African adventure, the backlash in Constantinople would be very strong, and might lead to an attempt to depose Justinian, never mind forgetting about further adventures in the west.

A lot would obviously depend on the way the expedition fails: if Belisarius turns back before the fleets engage it may end up in a significant embarrassment but not in a political disaster, while a repetition of 468 would likely bring down Justinian. The most interesting one is a TL where Belisarius actually manages to land his troops near Carthage: given the way Procopius describes the Vandal War, it is unlikely it will end well for the ERE (even if I doubt that Gelimer may have really planned the battle of Ad Decimum the way it is reported). The most likely outcome is a Vandal victory with heavy losses: there would be hell to pay all over the Mediterranean, from Constantinople (riots, a coup or two, maybe even a civil war) to Vandalia (there are really few Vandals, and they were already loosing control of the interior to the Berbers). It goes without saying that the big winner would be the kingdom of the Goths and Romans: even if there is a muddled succession as per OTL, they will get the time to sort it out.
 
And if Belisarius is lost then that has potential consequences when some of the ERE's other enemies' armies cross the borders...
 
And if Belisarius is lost then that has potential consequences when some of the ERE's other enemies' armies cross the borders...

Which enemy? After the war in Vandalia Belisarius was just involved in the Gothic wars (which was anything but a defensive war).

IMHO one might say that a major defeat by the Vandals would be beneficial to the ERE in the long term: the Gothic wars would not happen, no emperor would get the itch to reconquer the WRE and if Justinian is removed from the throne in the aftermath of the defeat he would not have the opportunity to squander his treasury commissioning building after building.
 
Which enemy? After the war in Vandalia Belisarius was just involved in the Gothic wars (which was anything but a defensive war).
You're forgetting his last battle, against Huns (or something of the sort) not far outside the walls of New Rome itself...
 
You're forgetting his last battle, against Huns (or something of the sort) not far outside the walls of New Rome itself...

A piddling little war against some Bulgars after having been put to pasture for more than 20 years? Hardly the stuff for legends
 
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