Eastern Front against a non-Communist Russia

[euromellows]

As it says on the tin. While I know Hitler was a psychopath and his hatred of perceived inferior races was very deep, I wonder how he would frame a 'Crusade' against Bolshevism without the Bolsheviks.

I realise this scenario takes little account of butterflies, but assuming a WW2 that takes the same course as OTL (excepting a Communist USSR) how would the German Army conduct itself on the Eastern Front? I note that Hitler was prepared to work with some Russians to suit his purposes (Russian Liberation Army) so there is some scope for differences.

(Note I'm assuming a Kerensky-style Government but if you feel there would be substantial differences in fighting a Monarchist Russia I'd be interested to see your opinions).

 

[Kongzilla]

It would probably be far better off without the purges, maybe less politically stable without Stalin using his tide of fear holding the place together.

 

[Carl Schwamberger]

I wonder how he would frame a 'Crusade' against Bolshevism without the Bolsheviks.

That is easy enough. Look at Hitler speeches and writing. Race is at the core of it, political aspects like Bolshivism were secondary.

However, a non communist 'Russia' changes things earlier. For Chamberlains government in the spring/summer of 1939 the Communist government of the Russia was a show stopper in reaching a anti German alliance. Lose the 'Bolshivik' aspects in the east and a anti German alliance between France and Russia, and by association Britain is very likely in 1938 or earlier. The trajectory of European events will be very different in the 1930s.

Perhaps a Facist Russian government, that could not agree with France might exist?

 

[kung Zog]

Race was the basis for Hitlers hatred of the east. However, the threat of Bolshevism was what allowed him to gain power. Without an active Bolshevik state it would be harder for Hitler to gain support from the conservative elements in Weimar Germany.

 

[Faeelin]

I still don't buy this "fear of Communism" which let Hitler gain power. Why did the far right do so poorly in the 1920s, when there were actual communist attempts at Revolution?

 

[Deleted member 1487]

I still don't buy this "fear of Communism" which let Hitler gain power. Why did the far right do so poorly in the 1920s, when there were actual communist attempts at Revolution?

The mainstream right still had legitimacy then; they lost it with Brüning's austerity program in 1930.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich_Brüning#As_chancellor

Brüning's measures were implemented in the summer by presidential decree and made him extremely unpopular among the lower and middle classes. As unemployment continued to rise, his cuts in welfare and reductions of wages combined with rising prices and taxes, increased misery among workers and the unemployed. This gave rise to the quote: "Brüning verordnet Not!" (Brüning decrees hardship), alluding to his measures being implemented by "Notverordnung".

The lower middle class was the conservative base that switched sides and brought Hitler to power.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_election,_November_1932

The fear was that another round of elections would bring a further collapse of the right, including the Nazis, who had run out of campaign money and had lost a significant share of the vote from the previous round of elections, and increase the KPD's electoral share.

 

[Urban fox]

Assuming this non-Bolshevil ''Russia'' is post-RCW. Then it wont stand up to any German state intnt on conquest. It'll most likely look something like China under the Kuomintang, I.E a corrupt, weakly-governed basket-case.

 

[Hades]

Really? I can see any russia collectively shitting themselves if/when the Nazis are elected. I can also see them being more likely to work with the British and French in containing the Germans.

Then again, you seem to think that Stalinist Russia "Hard men making hard decisions", therefore making the USSR into a superpower, when in reality, they screwed the pooch on quite a few occasions.

 

[Urban fox]

Really? I can see any russia collectively shitting themselves if/when the Nazis are elected. I can also see them being more likely to work with the British and French in containing the Germans.

Then again, you seem to think that Stalinist Russia "Hard men making hard decisions", therefore making the USSR into a superpower, when in reality, they screwed the pooch on quite a few occasions.

They did indeed, but they wernt the total ham-fisted morons some people seem to think they were. The Bolsheviks were utter zelots and that trait was as much a help as a hinderance at times.

A post RCW ''White Russia'' will be the broken shell of the Tsarist Empire and would not be governed by a stable & utterly ruthless central goverment. In fact it could a be a rump state. Having lost the Ukraine & parts of the Caucasus.

At best you have a corrupt & unpopular Junta paying lip-service to popular goverment in the from of a tame Duma. At worst outright Warlordism & constant Nationlist/Anarcist/Marxist/Whatever revolts & terrorism.

 

[MerryPrankster]

I still don't buy this "fear of Communism" which let Hitler gain power. Why did the far right do so poorly in the 1920s, when there were actual communist attempts at Revolution?

Read Timothy Snyder's Bloodlands. Hitler hyped Stalin's famines during his last electoral campaign.

 

[Urban fox]

Read Timothy Snyder's Bloodlands. Hitler hyped Stalin's famines during his last electoral campaign.

I agree with Faeelin, that Communist attemts to seize Bavaria etc would've been more of a factor in German elections than the awful rumours coming out of the U.S.S.R.

Also German rascism towards ''Asiatic Russians'' will be a major factor. So many Germans would just shrug & say ''that how those people treat each other'' without it really effecting their view of the German Communists.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

I agree with Faeelin, that Communist attemts to seize Bavaria etc would've been more of a factor in German elections than the awful rumours coming out of the U.S.S.R.

I have to disagree with you there. There was a Communist International at this time, which is why both the Bavarian and Hungarian communist states had in their leadership agents from the Russian Bolshevik party, which is something the German people did not forget, because this fact was played up in anti-communist rhetoric at the time. Also it was pretty widely reported that the KPD was taking orders from Moscow by the 1930s and with the KPD being the boogey man for German conservatives, what happens in Russia makes a difference electorally, because they both expected and told the German people that the Soviet model would be exported to Germany if Germany went communist. Also the reports weren't exactly rumors as much as factual atrocities.

 

[eliphas8]

I have to disagree with you there. There was a Communist International at this time, which is why both the Bavarian and Hungarian communist states had in their leadership agents from the Russian Bolshevik party, which is something the German people did not forget, because this fact was played up in anti-communist rhetoric at the time. Also it was pretty widely reported that the KPD was taking orders from Moscow by the 1930s and with the KPD being the boogey man for German conservatives, what happens in Russia makes a difference electorally, because they both expected and told the German people that the Soviet model would be exported to Germany if Germany went communist. Also the reports weren't exactly rumors as much as factual atrocities.

It didn't help the KPD where a bunch of stooges to the Russians who took over the movement (and bled it dry) when the sparticist leaders where killed for the most part.

 

[Enigmajones]

As it says on the tin. While I know Hitler was a psychopath and his hatred of perceived inferior races was very deep, I wonder how he would frame a 'Crusade' against Bolshevism without the Bolsheviks.

Unless you can have Max Scheubner-Richter survive the putsch, kill off Rosenberg, Hess and Haushofer, without butterflying away WW2. By the way, a White Russia will probably butterfly away the Nazis, maybe not Hitler or his political career, but the exact Nazi party? Not likely to be around.