Eastern Europe under Brest-Litovsk

Still, post-war German politics will probably be full of conflicts between the junker junta and the elected civilian politicians. One of them has to go (and probably not very nicely), either the Reichstag wins in the end, or they are abolished and we have a full military dictatorship.

And my guess is that the military will simply start lobbing shells into the Reichstag until it disperses in any POD where Germany wins this late in the war.

There was certainly a terrific cult of Hindenburg, but not so much of Ludendorff that I recall. It was Hindenburg's face that appeared on the propaganda posters, and on the great wooden statue that loan subscribers hammered the nails into.

Ludendorff, afaics, only mattered because Hindenburg needed him (or considered that he did) for advice on tactics. Once the shooting stops, that advice is no longer needed, and Ludendorff is as expendable as a paperclip

So if Hindenburg needs him, why's he going to sacrifice his brains when he wins?
 
And my guess is that the military will simply start lobbing shells into the Reichstag until it disperses in any POD where Germany wins this late in the war.

And then there will be a general strike and nothing will happen at all in the Empire. And let's not forget that the army of 1916 is no longer the army of 1914. A lot the young soldiers and even NCOs are from poor/socialist backgrounds. To expect them to just start shooting on civilians (their families to be more precise) without any backslash is ludicrous.

And the struggle between the Reichstag and the Kaiser had started in the late 19th century and stopped only because of the war. As soon as the war is over it'll flare up again, no matter if Germany won or lost.

The main problem I see is that there could be period of unrest and some quasi civil war like situations if the shit hits the fan.
 
And then there will be a general strike and nothing will happen at all in the Empire. And let's not forget that the army of 1916 is no longer the army of 1914. A lot the young soldiers and even NCOs are from poor/socialist backgrounds. To expect them to just start shooting on civilians (their families to be more precise) without any backslash is ludicrous.

And the struggle between the Reichstag and the Kaiser had started in the late 19th century and stopped only because of the war. As soon as the war is over it'll flare up again, no matter if Germany won or lost.

The main problem I see is that there could be period of unrest and some quasi civil war like situations if the shit hits the fan.

Well, these men had little problem with this when they were serving as the Freikorps, so why is this any different?
 
Indeed they had no problem fellowing Eberts orders.....

I should emphasize here again that I'm referring to the Freikorps, i.e. the mass movements immediately post-WWI. These same men will be just as rowdy and just as violent in victorious Wilhelmine Germany as they were in the defeated early-stage Weimar Republic.
 

yourworstnightmare

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I should emphasize here again that I'm referring to the Freikorps, i.e. the mass movements immediately post-WWI. These same men will be just as rowdy and just as violent in victorious Wilhelmine Germany as they were in the defeated early-stage Weimar Republic.
Well, in Weimar they were fighting the threat of a Communist revolution, on the same side as the civilian government. The post victory scenario would be different. It would be their officers with little remorse for what happens to them and little understanding of the issues of the lower and middle classes sending them to kill a Reichstag full of people who promise to help them if they get the chance. Not really the same thing. Although some of them would probably act as brutal as in OTL.
 
They don't have to be, as always it depends on how the war is won. The TL of the war up to H & Ls takeover meant a radicalisation took place, and it was this radicalisation that led to things like the Freikorps and revolutions. A TL that sees German success in the east from 1916 means that this radicalisation doesn't take place, or occurs in a milder form, therefore the activities of radicalised soldiers are different, milder.
 
Well, in Weimar they were fighting the threat of a Communist revolution, on the same side as the civilian government. The post victory scenario would be different. It would be their officers with little remorse for what happens to them and little understanding of the issues of the lower and middle classes sending them to kill a Reichstag full of people who promise to help them if they get the chance. Not really the same thing. Although some of them would probably act as brutal as in OTL.

Not in the Kapp Putsch they weren't.
 
If Germany wins, and this would mean earlier on than 1918 (or even late 1917) the "military dictatorship" will be less established, and the Reichstag will be less "anti-military" than OTL. As much as the Reichstag irritated Wilhelm from time to time I don't see him going with a Junta, and the generals would not do it against his will. Absent the hyperinflation of the early 1920s (wiping out the middle class), the reparations, and then the depression I don't see Germany going away from constitutional monarchy.

Unless the Germans are Nazi stupid, the areas they get/control after Brest-Litovsk will be very happy to be out from under the Tsar, and being connected to Germany will be an economic improvement, letting their languages be used with German as mandatory 2nd. The fact Germany controls foreign/military policy won't be too much of an issue, especially as Germany is their guarantee against being reabsorbed by Russia (like happened to them after WW2).

Remember during WW2 the Baltics & Ukraine welcomed the Germans until they got stupid. Poland can be managed as long as they have a "homeland".
 
If Germany wins, and this would mean earlier on than 1918 (or even late 1917) the "military dictatorship" will be less established, and the Reichstag will be less "anti-military" than OTL. As much as the Reichstag irritated Wilhelm from time to time I don't see him going with a Junta, and the generals would not do it against his will. Absent the hyperinflation of the early 1920s (wiping out the middle class), the reparations, and then the depression I don't see Germany going away from constitutional monarchy.

Unless the Germans are Nazi stupid, the areas they get/control after Brest-Litovsk will be very happy to be out from under the Tsar, and being connected to Germany will be an economic improvement, letting their languages be used with German as mandatory 2nd. The fact Germany controls foreign/military policy won't be too much of an issue, especially as Germany is their guarantee against being reabsorbed by Russia (like happened to them after WW2).

Remember during WW2 the Baltics & Ukraine welcomed the Germans until they got stupid. Poland can be managed as long as they have a "homeland".

They don't have to be Nazi-stupid, they just have to think that "we won" means "we do whatever the Hell we want, and we don't want to make new Slavic states after beating the first. If the locals object, we won the war." Keep in mind that fear of a Russian Empire that does not exist may be relatively limited next to the German Empire that is currently oppressing people and using the hypothetical return of Russia as an excuse for Germans dominating everything in their satellites from top to bottom. Oh, and arguments of Not-The-Nazis have no relevance if we assume Generalplan Ost would be solely in the realm of dystopian science fiction novels in the ATL as opposed to attempted implementation IOTL.
 
I think that there would be no reason for the Germans to act anywhere nearly as bad as the Nazis, though it is true that they will control the new states as satellites. Germans and German-speakers would probably be preferred, and there would be some economic and legal injustice against the locals, but I don't think things would devolve to the point of killing them in any great numbers, or to serious rebellion. For comparison, it would probably be less brutal than the Japanese treatment of the Taiwanese, in which case the locals were actually treated relatively well.

However, a great many of the Slavs would object to their status as German puppets, and combined with economic hardships imposed upon them, could the ideas of Communism, esp. with Soviet Russia right next door, have a chance at becoming popular in the satellites?
 
Not in the Kapp Putsch they weren't.
Which was defeated by a general strike.

A dictatorship of H&L after the war ended is not impossible but improbable for various reasons. After all if the emperor is no longer supporting Ludendorff's decisions and Ludendorff threatens his resignation the emperor can simply accept it. After all the war is over and the emperor will no longer need Ludendorff to fight a war. Hindenburg was even less inclined to overtly overthrow the emperor. In a victorious Germany the Freikorps would be reduced in numbers, because a lot of the issues which motivated some of the soldiers are not present. If Germany keeps the Brest-Litovsk outcome despite overall losing the war (highly improbable), this effect will be not so strong, but still present. And if Ludendorff tried a coup it would end like the Kapp Putsch: through a general strike.

Kind regards,
G.
 
Yeah there's no way they could keep down the populations of all those puppet states forever, especially with the Russians right next door. They'd probably wisen up and exercise looser control over those puppet states.

Or be like the British and play divide-and-rule.

In the game of empires nobody gives out freebies.
 
Which was defeated by a general strike.

A dictatorship of H&L after the war ended is not impossible but improbable for various reasons. After all if the emperor is no longer supporting Ludendorff's decisions and Ludendorff threatens his resignation the emperor can simply accept it. After all the war is over and the emperor will no longer need Ludendorff to fight a war. Hindenburg was even less inclined to overtly overthrow the emperor. In a victorious Germany the Freikorps would be reduced in numbers, because a lot of the issues which motivated some of the soldiers are not present. If Germany keeps the Brest-Litovsk outcome despite overall losing the war (highly improbable), this effect will be not so strong, but still present. And if Ludendorff tried a coup it would end like the Kapp Putsch: through a general strike.

Kind regards,
G.

When said general strike itself was the product of the Republic, not the Kaiserreich.
 
When said general strike itself was the product of the Republic, not the Kaiserreich.
It was the product of the people who did not tolerate a coup. The very same people who lived already in the Kaiserreich. The civilian government called for a general strike. The old Reichstag and the chancellor (especially if Bethmann would have been still in power) would have done the same - after all the very same people were already members of the Reichstag - for example, the SPD was already the strongest faction since 1912. Not to mention that the emperor could in case of a coup appeal to the loyalty of his soldiers. And one of the most important factors in the success of the strike was the support by the civil servants - who equally were the very same people as in the Kaiserreich. The Republic relied heavily on those established structures to guarantee a smooth transition of power and continuity in the administration. Whereas in the Kapp putsch the leaders of the coup could draw on the sentiments of the republic as the enemy of the old Kaiserreich, this would be impossible in a situation where the Kaiserreich still exists.

As it stands the success of a coup of Ludendorff after a victorious or at least semi-victorious ww1 with the emperor or his heir still at the helm is highly unlikely.

Kind regards,
G.
 
Or be like the British and play divide-and-rule.

In the game of empires nobody gives out freebies.

Frankly i don't really see the Germans as very adept to the divide and rule games, diplomatically speaking they were a problem making machine not a problem solving one; plus with H and L in charge i see a politics of Iron hand in Iron glove as very likely.
 
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