East Frisia as part of the Netherlands?

Outside of the brief time window of 1806 and 1813, East Frisia outside of the Dutch state though its western counterpart was one of the Seven Provinces. East Frisia had otherwise been independent until its annexation by Prussia in 1654 (a peaceful one as the Prussians respected Frisian autonomy), though under Dutch influence. What if East Frisia had become part of the Netherlands instead? No set PoD for this one. What would it mean for the Frisian language/people?
 
Is the language more related to Frisian as spoken in the province Friesland or more to neighbouring Groningen (so Saxon dialect)?
 
Outside of the brief time window of 1806 and 1813, East Frisia outside of the Dutch state though its western counterpart was one of the Seven Provinces. East Frisia had otherwise been independent until its annexation by Prussia in 1654 (a peaceful one as the Prussians respected Frisian autonomy), though under Dutch influence. What if East Frisia had become part of the Netherlands instead? No set PoD for this one. What would it mean for the Frisian language/people?

I don't know if the Frisian Language will survive in East Frisia. In Western Groningen it pretty much declined to be non existent from being a native language within 200 years or so. Odds are the Frisian Language may decline there as well.

Although, politically it might get interesting. The North was generally Socialist with Christian Democrats and Communists following up. Chances are the same may happen happen here as well, affecting Dutch Politics.

Economically it might be slightely better than Friesland. But still far behind other provinces except Zeeland and Drenthe.
 
German culture would miss out on the marvelous word 'moin' which is Ostfriesian for either 'good morning' or 'good day'(Friesians are known to use the word until late in the afternoon). It has since made it's way into the youth-speak and is reportedly used all the way to Berlin. Ditto with ' e Lutten' for 'a small one' Help all of us Germans if we were to look for our new hip words in Bavaria, or worse...Saxony
 
Although, politically it might get interesting. The North was generally Socialist with Christian Democrats and Communists following up. Chances are the same may happen happen here as well, affecting Dutch Politics.
The SDAP will be somewhat stronger, as probably also the CPN. But that will not be enough to really change the politics i think. As the SDAP/PvdA had between 1918 and 1960 the whole time about 1/3 of the votes and the communists had a one time height of 10 %.
 
Of course, there would be butterflies.... regarding the development of parties, that is.

With an expanded North Sea coast, how might that change trade or economy, if at all?

Unfortunate for Frisian speakers that it was declining by the time of Napoleon. Would an earlier acquisition of East Frisia by the Netherlands save it?
 
It would be possible in theory. One problem is the evetual linguistic oppression by the Dutch. Should East Frisia become part of Holland, cultural and linguistic takeover by the Dutch to make them part of 'us' and the hypothetical extinction of the Frisian people.

On the other hand, an expanded North Sea coast would allow the Dutch to have a variety of trade opportunities with Scandinavia and Great Britain.
 
Outside of the brief time window of 1806 and 1813, East Frisia outside of the Dutch state though its western counterpart was one of the Seven Provinces. East Frisia had otherwise been independent until its annexation by Prussia in 1654 (a peaceful one as the Prussians respected Frisian autonomy), though under Dutch influence. What if East Frisia had become part of the Netherlands instead? No set PoD for this one. What would it mean for the Frisian language/people?
The Dutch General States tried several times to invade East Frisia.
 
I believe that during the Dutch revolt there were actualy plans to include East-Frisia as one of the provinces of the Dutch republic. It never happened. Partly because East-Frisia was so much part of the Dutch sphere of influence that the difference did not matter. Partly because any expansion of the Netherlands, especialy the addition of new provinces would mean less influence for the current provinces, and mainly Holland. Holland was all powerful and wanted to remain all powerful. That is (partly) why Brabant never became a province (the catholisism was a good excuse). The Dutch, especialy Holland again, was not interested in European expansion. It wanted to make money through trade and colonies. So you need someone who would be more interested in territorial expansion and does not care about the power of Holland. In my planned timeline (which I have mentioned alot the last couple of years , while I have barely started on it) I have Stadholder willem II win (and survive) the powerstruggle between him and the regents of Holland and afterwards want to limit the power of Holland and thus adding East-Frisia and Drenthe as provinces (and at a later date Flanders and Brabant). This way East-Frisia could become part of the Netherlands. I would not worry too much about the Dutch enforcing their language upon East-Frisia, provinces had a lot of autonomy. If Friesland can safe Frisian, it would be possible for the East-Frisians too. If East-Frisian disappears, it is because the East-Frisians stop speaking the lanuage themselves, not because the Dutch enforce it on them.

Another option is with a POD after Napoleon. The kingdom of Holland gained East-Frisia. I think it is possible that during the Vienna congrss the Netherlands keeps East-Frisia. Prussia didn;'t care for it and after some trading Hanover got it. I could see another deal made. For example Prussia gains Luxemburg, like it wanted, while the Netherlands is compensated by East-Frisia and some other Prussian areas (like around Cleves or Gueldres).

The last option I see would be after WWI. If the Netherlands was invaded,just like Belgium was, it would have been compensated with German lands, just like Belgium was. East-Frisia would be the most likely part that the Netherlands would get.

Ok, other options would be the megalomanic Bakker-Schut plan, but I doubt the allies would give the Netherlands so much land after WWII, or the megalomanic Belgian plan after WWI to gain Limburg and compensate the netherlands with East-Frisia (and other areas), but that seems as unlikely as Bakker-Schut.


PS for the uninitiated in early modern Dutch politics (the time of the Dutch Republic), when I mention Holland I always mean the province and I don't use it as a synonym for the Netherlands. When talking about the kingdom ruled by Napolaon's brother, which consisted of most of the Netherlands, the entire kingdom was called the kingdom of Holland.
 

Skallagrim

Banned
Unfortunate for Frisian speakers that it was declining by the time of Napoleon. Would an earlier acquisition of East Frisia by the Netherlands save it?

It would be possible in theory. One problem is the evetual linguistic oppression by the Dutch. Should East Frisia become part of Holland, cultural and linguistic takeover by the Dutch to make them part of 'us' and the hypothetical extinction of the Frisian people.

Frisian is still the most flourishing regional language in the Netherlands, and has retained a certain status in small parts of Germany and Denmark as well. If you look here, however, you'll get an idea of just how early Frisian was supplanted in various areas. In East Frisia, it was the Saxons that supplanted the Frisians. If you look at East Frisia, you'll see most of it stopped being really Frisian in the period 1300-1600. Saxons moved in. I'd actually argue that if Frisia is absorbed into some proto-Dutch polity from the outset, and if this is governed like a confederation of provinces much as the Dutch lands have historically been... then this might aid the Frisians. A big point would be to avoid combining the Frisian coast and the Saxon hinterland into single provinces. If you keep the Frisian provinces apart from the Saxon ones, that improves the chances of Frisian to thrive as a language. (Observe that all areas where Frisian came to be a language governed from a Saxon-speaking city -- such as Groningen -- Frisian declines, but where it was governed by Frisians themselves, it continued to thrive.)

If you can make sure that the city of Groningen becomes part of Drenthe, whereas the (initially Frisian) 'Ommeland' remains a Frisian polity, then you get a contiguous Frisian area that includes all of East Frisia. If you can manage to have this area be united as one big Frisian province within a Dutch context, you may be quite confident that Frisian will remain the primary language there until c. 1900 (assuming roughly the same kind of history as in OTL), and will remain a strong regional language thereafter. (Basically, you'd be setting Frisian up to be as successful in the Ommeland and in East Frisia as it has been in OTL Dutch Frisia. Considering that OTL Frisia is pretty much bilingual, that's a pretty cool outcome for the Frisians!)
 
Frisian is still the most flourishing regional language in the Netherlands, and has retained a certain status in small parts of Germany and Denmark as well. If you look here, however, you'll get an idea of just how early Frisian was supplanted in various areas. In East Frisia, it was the Saxons that supplanted the Frisians. If you look at East Frisia, you'll see most of it stopped being really Frisian in the period 1300-1600. Saxons moved in. I'd actually argue that if Frisia is absorbed into some proto-Dutch polity from the outset, and if this is governed like a confederation of provinces much as the Dutch lands have historically been... then this might aid the Frisians. A big point would be to avoid combining the Frisian coast and the Saxon hinterland into single provinces. If you keep the Frisian provinces apart from the Saxon ones, that improves the chances of Frisian to thrive as a language. (Observe that all areas where Frisian came to be a language governed from a Saxon-speaking city -- such as Groningen -- Frisian declines, but where it was governed by Frisians themselves, it continued to thrive.)

If you can make sure that the city of Groningen becomes part of Drenthe, whereas the (initially Frisian) 'Ommeland' remains a Frisian polity, then you get a contiguous Frisian area that includes all of East Frisia. If you can manage to have this area be united as one big Frisian province within a Dutch context, you may be quite confident that Frisian will remain the primary language there until c. 1900 (assuming roughly the same kind of history as in OTL), and will remain a strong regional language thereafter. (Basically, you'd be setting Frisian up to be as successful in the Ommeland and in East Frisia as it has been in OTL Dutch Frisia. Considering that OTL Frisia is pretty much bilingual, that's a pretty cool outcome for the Frisians!)

To make Groningen Drenth one either needs a Late Medieval PoD or Napoleon rearranges everything in the Netherlands.
 

Skallagrim

Banned
To make Groningen Drenth one either needs a Late Medieval PoD or Napoleon rearranges everything in the Netherlands.

True. As I said, the period we're looking at here (during which Frisian mostly disappears in large parts of the relevant areas) is 1300-1600. A POD prior to 1300 would be best, on the simple basis of "the sooner the better".
 
Once had this idea: A France victorious in a similar revolutionary war annexes the Netherlands and East Frisia, similar as IOTL; a rebellion gives both Frisias independence, since the French are busy holding down Spain at the same time; and then, Frisia becomes a Dutch Piemont, so to speak. (Used in my Chaos TL.)
 
Ps. To stay with Germany: What would the economic and cultural impact be of Hamburg and Bremen now being frontier towns. Bremen has its port of Bremerhaven now on the other side of the border, if it has a port at all. Hamburg now is Germany's only port opening to the North Sea.... opening to the West in general.

What about half of the roustabouts working on the docks now being Friesian-Dutch migrant workers?
 
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