Easiest way to a completely secular Middle East

It was training and command that failed. Arabs simply aren't terribly good at conventional warfare, a fact that could be seen over and over again since 1948.

Wrong, see Yom Kipper War.

Any who, a win at '67 could have done a lot to disenfranchise islamists for the next few decades but really until the Palestinians retake all of Palestine there's going to be a problem.

And if the Arab armies try to push the Israelis into the sea by 67, nukes would indeed start flying.
 
There was no need to push Israelis to the sea - just beat them hard enough to make them renounce territorial claims in West Bank/Sinai/Golan heights. It would also make more sense for Nasser to not die in 1970 but ti live and rule for 10-15 years more - none of Arab leaders had charisma that Nasser had.
 

Pomphis

Banned
There was no need to push Israelis to the sea - just beat them hard enough to make them renounce territorial claims in West Bank/Sinai/Golan heights.

But the entire war 1947-1967 was not about west bank / sinai / golan which were under jordanian / egyptian / syrian control anyway, but about israel in the pre-67 borders. If the pre-67 borders had been "enough", there would have been peace long before 1967.
 
There was no need to push Israelis to the sea - just beat them hard enough to make them renounce territorial claims in West Bank/Sinai/Golan heights. It would also make more sense for Nasser to not die in 1970 but ti live and rule for 10-15 years more - none of Arab leaders had charisma that Nasser had.

Nasser whole rhetoric was to push the jews to the sea.
 
What about an Ottoman Empire which remains neutral in WW1? The Young Turks had already established a constitutional monarchy with a modern party system. If political reforms and modernization continued with the participation of secularists like Ataturk, you might end up with a modern only nominally Islamic State (like how the United Kingdom is a nominally Christian State) by 2015. Homosexuality was legalized in the Ottoman Empire in 1858 so the region would undoubtably be better for gay people.

If the Wahhabists are prevented from taking over Arabia (and Ottoman territory expands to include what is in OTL Saudi Arabia) I could easily imagine an oil-rich superpower developing. This oil money could fuel economic development and lead to a very different, unified middle east that's an economic powerhouse. This economic prosperity would keep the various nationalist and ethnic/sectarian divides from boiling over into conflict and revitalize the empire.

This modern Ottoman Empire would include Modern Turkey, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Israel/Palestine & Saudi Arabia. Iran was also in the process of modernizing & secularizing in OTL, so I don't see much change being necessary there.

If a later POD is desired. I could imagine secular-nationalist ideologies spreading in the 1950s, 1960s & 1970s. It would be easy to imagine Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Yemen remaining secular, but it's difficult to imagine Saudi Arabia & the other Islamist monarchies collapsing.
 
Completely secular? Very hard to say.

But Islamic extremism not an issue/seperation of mosque and state? Either Britain does not side with the Sauds and they honor their dealings with the Arabs in WW1. That or Israel is placed somewhere else or is made to be multi-ethnic, Mossedegh is more successful(US supports him over Britain, so no coup) or Nasserist Pan-Arabism is more successful(might also overlap with a more successful Mossedegh)
 
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It saddens me to see everyone scapegoat Israel for the problems of the Arab world. Somehow if you make Israel go away they don't turn to radical Islam and embrace democracy? Nah, I don't think it's that easy, sorry. Stop falling for the Muslim red herring that Jews are the problem. Look internal, not external. Turkey, albeit a Muslim not an Arab state, has done just fine (until recently) on being a secular state. Albania has finally started doing ok... though a giant pyramid scheme right after decades of communism didn't help, it had nothing to do with Israel whereas the majority of the population that acknowledges a religion is Muslim. The problems the Muslim Bosnians have had since 1991 has nothing to do with Israel. Might as well blame Greece's economic problems on Turkey existing and claim a PoD where Greece wins in 1923 butterflies away Greece's current debt problem!

Sorry, but Zionism is not the problem that caused Arab instability and recklessness, but anti-Zionism has been a major contributor (eg- constant warmongering, loss of life, constant military spending, et al has contributed to a worse economy). It isn't the fault of Israel existing that can cause anti-zionism to not happen, it must be the underlying economic and cultural attitudes that allow an anti-zionist feelings themselves to occur that must be butterflied. Otherwise you simply shift to anti-Turkish, anti-Iranian, anti-Druze, anti-Sunni, anti-Shi'ite, anti-Kurdish, anti-Christian, anti-Jewish, anti-Armenian feelings. Saudis will still hate Iranians, Iranians and Iraqis will still hate, Kurds and Turks. PoD of no Israel doesn't even get rid of good sized Jewish populations in Egypt, Yemen, Iraq, and whatever you're going to call Israel. Palestine was a Jewish name for the land prior to 1948 and Palestinian was the name for the Jews of Palestine, and without an Israel you don't have a Palestinian identity as that name for Arabs in that territory.
 
you want a secular middle east?

Then you need to discredit Islamism.

Best way to do that is to have religious leaders be the puppets that rule the middle east for the western powers. Give them privaleges that come at the expense of the common man, and then let the resentment and humilation grow.

When the colonial powers leave the middle east will go through a wave of secularization.
 

jahenders

Banned
This was apparently sent from some other planet. The Taliban, Isis, Saudis, Iranians, etc certainly care whether it's a guy with a bear or a woman -- they'll beat the woman to death if she doesn't dress right, drives, or otherwise "gets out of line." Then you have cases like in Saudi where a Saudi beats and rapes his SE Asian made, gets her pregnant, and then has HER imprisoned for seduction. No sane person can consider that either freedom or equal rights.

Sir this is not the sign of freedom !
The same generation of women who wore minis cried at the funeral of Nasser who was great tyrant , and hated Israel and wanted to kill all European jews who settled there.Not to mention racisim towards other minorities.

The real sign of freedom is that muslims separate mosque and state , and respect human rights ALL citizens are free and have equal rights.I don't care if the muslim ruler who does this has a 3 ft long beard and a turban or their woman leader wears a niqab /burka.
 

jahenders

Banned
I've often wondered how the Islamic world would respond if someone somehow pulled off a massive terrorist attack during the hajj, killing thousands and largely destroying the Kaaba stone, but the perpetrator is a native of Saudi, Syria, or Iraq and appears to be "lone wolf" actor. For example, perhaps he steals an airliner full of people going to/from the Hajj and crashes it directly into the Kaaba while thousands circle it.

The difference is that destroying Mecca fundamentally discredits Islamic religion. Shiites have Imams that serve as prophets, so they can lead their followers into a new pot-mecca understanding of the religion. Sunnis cannot. Hence, my point is you get a secularized, pissed off Sunni majority that is not devout but virulently anti-western.
 
you want a secular middle east?

Then you need to discredit Islamism.

Best way to do that is to have religious leaders be the puppets that rule the middle east for the western powers. Give them privaleges that come at the expense of the common man, and then let the resentment and humilation grow.

When the colonial powers leave the middle east will go through a wave of secularization.

is this a joke or are you serious?

This is exactly what has happened and its has only strengthened the hold of Islamists and Salafists
 
It saddens me to see everyone scapegoat Israel for the problems of the Arab world. Somehow if you make Israel go away they don't turn to radical Islam and embrace democracy? Nah, I don't think it's that easy, sorry. Stop falling for the Muslim red herring that Jews are the problem. Look internal, not external. Turkey, albeit a Muslim not an Arab state, has done just fine (until recently) on being a secular state. Albania has finally started doing ok... though a giant pyramid scheme right after decades of communism didn't help, it had nothing to do with Israel whereas the majority of the population that acknowledges a religion is Muslim. The problems the Muslim Bosnians have had since 1991 has nothing to do with Israel. Might as well blame Greece's economic problems on Turkey existing and claim a PoD where Greece wins in 1923 butterflies away Greece's current debt problem!

Sorry, but Zionism is not the problem that caused Arab instability and recklessness, but anti-Zionism has been a major contributor (eg- constant warmongering, loss of life, constant military spending, et al has contributed to a worse economy). It isn't the fault of Israel existing that can cause anti-zionism to not happen, it must be the underlying economic and cultural attitudes that allow an anti-zionist feelings themselves to occur that must be butterflied. Otherwise you simply shift to anti-Turkish, anti-Iranian, anti-Druze, anti-Sunni, anti-Shi'ite, anti-Kurdish, anti-Christian, anti-Jewish, anti-Armenian feelings. Saudis will still hate Iranians, Iranians and Iraqis will still hate, Kurds and Turks. PoD of no Israel doesn't even get rid of good sized Jewish populations in Egypt, Yemen, Iraq, and whatever you're going to call Israel. Palestine was a Jewish name for the land prior to 1948 and Palestinian was the name for the Jews of Palestine, and without an Israel you don't have a Palestinian identity as that name for Arabs in that territory.

Two words: The Nakba.

Look it up.

If Muslims in the 12th century did this to Rome, Christian Europe would have radicalized just like the Islamic Middle East has today.

What Israel, in conjunction with the Wallies, should have done is take some actual time a build a single multi-ethnic state in Palestine. Not throw refugees on the strip and arm them to forceable deport families from their land.
 
Not throw refugees on the strip and arm them to forceable deport families from their land.

Just to be picky, it was the Soviets that armes the Israelis :p

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Yes, yes, I don't believe in the "Arabs were pure people devoid of malice, but were corrupted by the evil westerns" myth pro-Palestine people keep sperging, but you can't deny that the foundation and the multiple failures to destroy Israel fulled the islamists.
 
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Two words: The Nakba.

Look it up.

If Muslims in the 12th century did this to Rome, Christian Europe would have radicalized just like the Islamic Middle East has today.

What Israel, in conjunction with the Wallies, should have done is take some actual time a build a single multi-ethnic state in Palestine. Not throw refugees on the strip and arm them to forceable deport families from their land.

When Arabs voluntarily leave and abandon their homes or voluntarily sell their lands that's not forceable relocation; that's just what it was- voluntary. No one told those Arabs living in the West Bank that they couldn't stay, in fact it's Jordan's fault they became refugees. If Jordan wanted the West Bank to begin with (which they must've because after taking the West Bank they changed their name from TransJordan to Jordan) then they should have taken in the West Bank Arabs as full citizens when Israel took the West Bank. Wars have meanings. When a country wins a war, they get land; a country loses there is consequences. It is 2015 and Israel should give up land it won in 1948? Why? In 1915 did anyone say Mexico should get the land the USA won in 1848? Oh, wait, the Germans did and it was one of the reasons the US joined WWI because Americans were outraged by the Zimmerman Telegraph (among other atrocities like submarine warfare, etc).
 
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