Earth without Einstein.

Jamusio EMP

Banned
so how far forward should I move the years to make knowledge of the Marshal Plan plausible, or should I just edit that part out?
 

Jamusio EMP

Banned
ok. Though the reasoning behind this TL has been killed repeatedly, I am still going to begin making the next part. It will be (probably) a briefing sheet for President Harry.S Truman, detailing the front in western Europe. The Russians do begin there attack (though some do think that B.S.) but the start also details the tension, as both countries don't declare war, hoping to retrieve the Emperors Wrath, until that skirmish in the Japan develops to point were it can't be ignored. The reason why I am going to have the Russians attack in mainland Europe, is that both sides have seen that the situation will continue to escalate, the Russians have decided to pre-empt the escalation.

If you think this is B.S., well the bar for your detail has been set by the blazing retort by Wryagen-TXRG4P. Read that, that is how detailed you have to be. Its probably easier to make your own thread than to write that.

As I'm not a general, the brief and the map will be based purely on how long it takes to move similar distances in similar campaigns, and places I think would be significant places to capture. Reviews on that in particular will be welcomed, and I will change accordingly.
 
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Jamusio EMP

Banned
Brief.

1946
September 9nth
White House
Washington D.C
United States Of America.

The following 2 months after the beginning of operation Smash and Grab, had been filled with political tension, as neither side wished to mention it in diplomatic meetings. Both sides wanted the Emperors Wrath, for themselves and only themselves. But, neither wanted to escalate the war before they gained hold of the chemical. News reports of armed build-ups along the boarder zones and soldiers being called back to service were stopped, as soon as they started to cause panic. Specifically, when they caused a huge overnight drop in the stock market. Even before the war starts, it has already caused damage in that respect. But that is nothing compared to the real damage it will create.


Classified BRIEF Concerning Russian attack in Western Europe.


We believe that they are attempting to cut of our troops in East Germany by cutting through southern West Germany, along to Bonn and up to Brussels. Their other thrust is engaging the bulk of our forces in West Germany, presumably to keep them still while we encircle them. They have struck downwards, through Bulgaria into Greece, and have a beach head in the Bosporus, after a amphibious landing. They have also made a thrust into northern Italy. We are still fighting for Air superiority. We will very soon be able to give you the details of logistics and troops numbers.

BRIEF ends.
 
Suppose something else happens after 1905. As we know the Curies and Becquerel were working on radioactivity. At some point, they would have discovered radium and ultimately a phenomena that seems to violate the laws of conservation of energy. Somebody would continue to pursue this mysterious energy source without an understanding of relativity. Marie Curie's second Nobel Prize was for a process to extract and collect radium. More and more researchers begin to exploit this new energy source and ultimately pursue the first atomic power plant, to produce electricity.

Something goes wrong and one big boom opens a whole in Paris, Chicago, Berlin, or London.

Uranium was hard to come by even until the 1930's, Belgium Congo being the main source (which is why it was quickly taken care of by Allies when the Low Counties got invaded). MarkE, do you mean one big boom is a chain reaction, a dirty bomb so to speak? Some one has a lot of money for that much radioactivity, perhaps an eccentric multi-millionaire enthusiast?

I recall seeing a TV documentary on Einstein, which cronicled that in 1904-5, before his theory of Relativity,
conferences commonly used the term relativity. Something was a foot.

Surely Einstein was a great simplifier and artful theorist in classical physics until 1920 when he stopped being useful
(god does not play dice with the universe, re: quantum physics can not be correct). But instead of pulling the hand brakes post 1920 trying to prove various new kids wrong, the physics elite sans Einstein might well have had more collective cohesive effort. In fact, this glue may have had a decided accellerating effect.

However, who can say? Too many variables for me. Good luck on your TL. It would pay to do some heavy research on the physics conferences of 1904-5, the one indicated in particular I think was in Northern Italy. This should help make a pretty decent and plausible narrative, even in flashback for a 1945 storyline.
 
For Mark E. if he meant it that way, and any others, the large majority of Uranium is 238 isotope. Refined isotope 235, less than 1% of natural sources, is the one explosive and able to go critical, meaning explosive in the dirty or clean bomb method. A dirty bomb of ordinary types of explosives and odd waste radioactivity would have been hard to scrounge pre WWII as next to no waste was generated. 238 and 234 are not fissible, do not support a chain reaction and only 235 or much harder to produce Plutonium do.

238 is called depleted uranium. They use it for tanks as a lead heavy (stopping power for explosives) but alloy metal strong shield. The Germans in WWII did this and may have started the practice. It is sort of safe enough to be around for long periods, 1.67 times dense as lead, it sort of shields from interior radiation as well as leaking some.

Phalanx and other solid shield of bullet methods to deal with Exocet intruders use depleted uranium as armor piercing projectiles.
 

Jamusio EMP

Banned
Uranium was hard to come by even until the 1930's, Belgium Congo being the main source (which is why it was quickly taken care of by Allies when the Low Counties got invaded). MarkE, do you mean one big boom is a chain reaction, a dirty bomb so to speak? Some one has a lot of money for that much radioactivity, perhaps an eccentric multi-millionaire enthusiast?

I recall seeing a TV documentary on Einstein, which cronicled that in 1904-5, before his theory of Relativity,
conferences commonly used the term relativity. Something was a foot.

Surely Einstein was a great simplifier and artful theorist in classical physics until 1920 when he stopped being useful
(god does not play dice with the universe, re: quantum physics can not be correct). But instead of pulling the hand brakes post 1920 trying to prove various new kids wrong, the physics elite sans Einstein might well have had more collective cohesive effort. In fact, this glue may have had a decided accellerating effect.

However, who can say? Too many variables for me. Good luck on your TL. It would pay to do some heavy research on the physics conferences of 1904-5, the one indicated in particular I think was in Northern Italy. This should help make a pretty decent and plausible narrative, even in flashback for a 1945 storyline.

Thanks. But I think I won't include much more details about the divergence, the simple act of placing this on the thread makes my job a lot easier by adding info that increases its plausibility. (Though even things that pick holes in the reasoning help, as this is my first one, and any criticism helps.) Also, I am going to edit out the Marshal plan reference, as it actually hadn't been created yet.
 
Uranium was hard to come by even until the 1930's, Belgium Congo being the main source (which is why it was quickly taken care of by Allies when the Low Counties got invaded). MarkE, do you mean one big boom is a chain reaction, a dirty bomb so to speak? Some one has a lot of money for that much radioactivity, perhaps an eccentric multi-millionaire enthusiast?

What I meant was that others would still be working on atomic energy without a complete understanding of relativity. At some point, perhaps in the thirties, somebody could embark on an energy-producing project without knowing about critical mass. That's where an accident comes along, it might be in a populated area. So, the question becomes: would others in the field of physics; Lorentz, Heisenberg, Curie, etc.; come up with the notion of critical mass before it is discovered by disaster?

Edit: They did not know how dangerous radiation was until workers developed cancer and the lives of Marie Curie and Enrico Fermi would be shortened by it. They did not know the chemical hazards of asbestos, vinyl chloride, PCB transformer oil, dioxins, etc.; until people suffered from them. They did not know that if you spray oil on to ammonium nitrate fertilizer to control dust, you have a recipe for disaster; until April 16, 1947 when the SS Grandcamp exploded in Texas City harbor with the explosive yield of the Nagasaki bomb. So, does this ATL add criticality to the list of "what they don't know?"
 
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Jamusio EMP

Banned
good idea, I think I could use that as a method to destroy some city, or country if I need to. When I say destroy country, a nuclear accident near farmland, or a major income bringing port could cripple certain countries. So thank you, you have given me a new, one use, plot device.
 
It is a well known fact that industry will exploit mineral technology before science fully researches the potential hazards, at least before the late sixties. Relativity was almost unique in science because the theory of conversion of matter to energy was laid down before any practice was developed, such as the commercial use of radium on clock dials. So, no Einstein lays down the framework for a one-time disaster. Fortunately, it would most likely be limited to Hiroshima-sized scope and not cripple a country completely.
 
This is how you could do it though:
Without einstein most scientists behind the letter are non-americans, because now they don't have a high profile figurehead its opponents manage to get it trashed because of a good dose of mistrust of foreigners.
(snip)

Err... Einstein was a foreigner.

Also, the role of the Einstein-Szillard letter in precipitating the Manhatten Project is greatly exagerated. The key event in the creation of the Manhattan Project and hence the atomic bomb wasn't, contrary to popular opinion the Einstein-Szillard memo to FDR, which was written in 1939.

The letter resulted in the S-1 Uranium Committee, which basically did very little and had a tiny budget. This was partly due to the fact that their understanding was that tons of Uranium 235 would be required, and hence the project was not very practical.

In 1940, the British (in fact Otto Frisch and Rudolf Peierls working for the British) correctly appreciated that the amount of Uranium 235 required was far less than previously thought (pounds rather than tons).

In late 1940, the British MAUD committee produced a report outlining the feasibility of the bomb, which was sent to the Americans but ignored. The British started their "Tube Alloys" project but basically couldn't afford to prioritise it as they were fighting for their lives.

The key event was the visit of Mark Oliphant of the MAUD committee to the USA in 1941, where he impressed on the US scientists the feasibility and urgency of manufacturing the bomb. After these meetings, in December 1941 Vannevar Bush created the Office of Scientific Research and Development, after that the Manhattan Project took off and quickly eclipsed the British project, which was eventually (1943) folded into it.

So, if you are looking for a PoD to delay the Allied Atomic Bomb then Oliphant's flight to the USA crashing wold be ideal, however I doubt that would stop it completely, just delay it, eventually the British would send another representative and/or an American scientist would make the correct calculations.

References:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einstein-Szilárd_letter
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-1_Uranium_Committee
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frisch-Peierls_memorandum
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MAUD_Committee
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tube_Alloys
 

Jamusio EMP

Banned
It is a well known fact that industry will exploit mineral technology before science fully researches the potential hazards, at least before the late sixties. Relativity was almost unique in science because the theory of conversion of matter to energy was laid down before any practice was developed, such as the commercial use of radium on clock dials. So, no Einstein lays down the framework for a one-time disaster. Fortunately, it would most likely be limited to Hiroshima-sized scope and not cripple a country completely.

I know it probably wouldn't destroy a large country, but a small one, or a country dependent on one major port for instance, could have their economy crippled if it was irradiated.
 

Jamusio EMP

Banned
Stalingrad again.

As the Communists advanced into Europe, the Allied troops in Berlin became more cut off then they ever were before. They're situation has been likened by Russian broadcasts to Stalingrad: "As Stalingrad marked the fall of the Nazis, so will Berlin mark the fall of the Capitalists." Though it is known that who holds Berlin is not, at this stage, important to the war, and that the broadcast was merely propaganda, the feeling of history repeating itself did lay heavily on Western minds. The Allied soldiers in Berlin had surprisingly not fallen, despite the odds against them. (Message to reader: I can't come up with a convincing estimate of how long their food would last etc, suggestions please in comments. (Wow, that seems sort of lazy, but the request stands.)) Some of the German POWs held by the garrison there had been released and armed (a controversial decision by the commander at best, ludicrous at worst) as they had recognized the greater threat was the Red Army, and also held them in a much lower regard, both due to their racial ideals and ideas, and because of their experiences with them, than the Western Allies. Food and ammo had been stock piled, key routes into the city had tank traps dug (using everything from broken spades, to artillery) and were usually protected by the defensive strong points that were built into the buildings neighbouring them. Ammo and food had been stockpiled in the sewers, and a rudimentary command centre was also down there. By using the tunnels to transport men and materiel through the tunnels, hey could have direct, non-bombarded paths to wherever they were most needed. The defenders were under constant bombardment from the artillery all around them, and it is speculated the only reason the held out against the attacks, was because the best tanks, and soldiers and artillery, and the majority of ammo was being used in the pushes into Western Europe. But meanwhile, the battle for the skies of Europe was being fought.
 

Jamusio EMP

Banned
Also, the next update will centre on Japan again, and hopefully more details will be given on the attack in Western Europe
 

Jamusio EMP

Banned
This post has a link here to my poll on who should win in my TL. It closes in one week, so next wednesday. Vote please!
 
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Jamusio EMP

Banned
Blockade

Ok. Firstly, 5 people so far have weighed in on the poll, but I don't need the results yet to continue the TL.

The Island of Hokkaido is thoroughly under the thumb of the Communists, thanks to a daring parachute landing followed by a amazingly risky amphibious assault, using cobbled together craft, as the Soviet Union hadn't had the Island hoping experience of the Americans and Australians. But upon declaration of war between the Allies and the Communists, the US navy had sprung into action, blockading the Communist held Island, both from the sea, and the air, via air craft carriers. The citizens of Sapporo react violently, under a renewed bombing campaign and under the yoke of another dictatorship, without even the numbing effect of patriotism to soften the blows of the new (red) fist that rules them. Full scale rebellion catches the Russian soldiers of guard. They had expected only subservience from the malnourished people once they're military had fallen, which, apart from guerilla resistance, had definitely fallen. Surely the people who had been held under full dictatorship for generations would have only than silent complaints against the change of dictators? On these accounts, they were wrong.

People began streaming from the cities in Hokkaido (similar events were also happening in American held Japan, despite the lack of pure evil) into the mountains and countryside. Gun caches, built up for this exact situation were unearthed by guerilla units, who then trained the civilians in the art of warfare. Roughly a quarter of the 71 million (and correct me here) were able bodied men. Coordinating with radios and what was left of the military hierarchy, the Japanese launched attacks from the countryside all around major cities. Due to the proximity to the research facility being battled over in the mountains, both sides had high concentrations of military forces near Sendai, Niggata and Aomori, meaning the attacks there failed quickly, despite inflicting heavy casualties on the surprised defenders, which did allow them to push forward quickly in places were they are unopposed by tanks. Tokyo was heavily defended, at least in the parts above knee height, but the sheer numbers there meant that the defender had tor retreat to the HQ building, were they were surrounded until reinforcements arrived. In Shizuoka, Osaka, Fukuoka and any were that isn't not a city was captured by the rebels. Soon tanks were rolling from Allied territory, beckoning a new wave of violence and atrocities, as the outnumber Russian occupiers in Hokkaido were forced into small safe zones against the onslaught, waiting for reinforcements, and shitting themselves in surprise.


Despite my quip about pure evil, I am not American. I will be away for a while, so the flow of updates will stop. Any criticism is welcome, especially things concerning numbers, as I don't know details of weapons and population in any depth.
 

Jamusio EMP

Banned
I can't yet add much to the story, as the poll has voted Allied win and Commie win as joint first. Someone break the tie!
 

Jamusio EMP

Banned
The skies of Europe.

Ok. Enough people have weighed in on a second poll I made, that I can now reveal the course of the air battle over Europe! Yay!

1946 September 29th
Europe

As Columns of T-34's roll into the beautiful countryside of France, adding their track to the tracks of the allies who rolled over their in conquest nearly a year before, the battle for the skies of Europe writhes above them. Shear weight of numbers takes its toll on the Allied air force. Soon, the skies are held by a battered, weakened, but victorious Red Air force. But knowledge lays heavily on the minds of the Red Air Force Commanders. Every day, and every night, multiple huge raids set out from British and captured air bases. Flying Fortresses and Lancaster Bombers push their maximum flight ceiling, all intent on bombing refineries and Oil fields. Though the skies are ruled by the Red Air Force, there rule is not complete. High altitude Interceptors, are a luxury the Russians do not posses, and despite on going attempts to build them, they are still a long way of mass production. On the ground, the allied forces must fight without air support, and are driven back, but soon the number of planes they see decreases. The tanks and soldiers and artillery become more conservative. The Russians thirst for oil, for their tanks, their planes, and ammo convoys. But their refineries are burning, and each day, more are destroyed. Within the month, a new allied air force, though much smaller than the one that fought the first advance, strikes out against the diminished and oil starved Red Air Force. Once again, the Allies have air superiority. But their ground forces are heavily depleted, and now seem to have reached a stalemate with the oil starved Red Army. Both sides prepare for a renewed offensive. The Battle line is mere miles from Paris. A daring push away, think some in the Kremlin. The Red mobility is servilely decreased. Multiple attacks on different parts of the front may force them to move distances they cannot move, think others, in America and Britain. But can those who think these grand master plans even contemplate the blood they will spill? Can anyone but the soldiers, victims war and separated by flags, see the tide of blood that shall once again soak the soil of Europe?


Well thats all for tonight folks, tune in next week for more Tails Of Interest!!! Correct me if I'm wrong!
 
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