Early Split in the Roman Empire Timeline.

Hi everyone new to the board. I love history, and I stumbled on this website. I have a timeline I've been been rolling around in my head and I was wanting some input on it and insight from the wise heads on here. What if the Roman Empire split earlier during the time of the year of the Four Emperors? In my timeline the Jewish revolt is much bigger so Vespasian is forced to stay in the East to stop the spreading revolt that has now flared up into Egypt and Syria, with Parthian support. Meanwhile in the West Vitellius has been able to get Galba's legions as well as Otho's legions to swear loyalty to him giving him more troops to hold the western half of the empire. By the time Vespasian has put down some of the revolt Vitellius is to powerful and the Senate has been cowed by him, into submission. Vitellius is proclaimed empreor in the west. Vespasian in the east. Soon two dynastys are formed. The Germanicus dynasty in the West, and the Flavian Dynasty in the East. Anyone have any thoughts on this timeline? I might write it into a story.
 
I'm interested, but wonder if it would be permanent. Wasn't the Roman Empire only divided in two so there could be an Emperor permenantly close to the Persian front? With Persia still under the Parthians, there would be less need for this...
 

Kosovic

Banned
AAAAAAH, you read my mind? Cuz u just stole my idea. Sort of.

I am trying to write an ATL about what would happen if Licinius won the war, instead of Constantine.
 
I really don't see this working at all, I don't see just giving Vitellius more troops will help much at all. His own lack of great leadership skills, showed up from the second he became emperor. Vespasian was far and away his better in pretty much every area. Vespasian had the troops to match Vitellius, control of the bread basket of the ancient world, Eygpt. Also if he for whatever reason waits till after the Jewish revolt. He would have more troops, a large part of his main force he commanded was not even needed to take down Vitellius. Then also he has Titus, meaning you have two leaders of great martial skill, against Vitellius, who is far outclassed by this point. Also, if he waits this long, Vitellius kept up his ruling style, he would of made even more enemies. I really just can't see this working out to well, for Vitellius.
 
The Dynasty Wars

Thanks everyone for all the feed back. I've decieded to go ahead with the story and I will put chapters of the first book in the trilogy on here. So sit back and enjoy!


Prologue (Judea 70 A.D.)

The hot wind of the fire blew across Vespasian's face as he looked at the burning temple. He held his head down as the tears streamed down his face. His son Domitian was dead, killed in the final assult on the The Great Temple, along with 1800 men. The Jews had fought for every inch of the Temple, and Roman blood had spilled, special Roman blood, his beloved son's blood. Vespasian choked back a sob and turned back towards his only son, Titus. Titus stood before him in dented and blood stained armour. His helmet was gone, and a deep gash poured blood across his scalp.
"Father', said Titus reaching out to put a hand on his shoulder.
Vespasian, stopped his son and spoke with a strained voice." It was not your fault, Titus you did all that you could."
Titus turned away from his father and put his face in his hands and wept.
"It was father. I could not reach him, the rebels cut him and his men off, I should have seen that they were luring us into a trap!"
Titus started to sob, his father placed both his hands on his shoulders and turned him towards him.
"Much happens in war that we can not control", said Vespasian sadly " What is important is that you are alive."
"But father he died in my arms!" cried Titus
"Titus YOU ARE ALIVE." Vespasian said powerfully.
Titus lowered his head and his father embraced him. Vespasian let the tears from his son splash upon his shoulder. Titus then let go of his father and looked back at the fire, lost in his own thought. Vespasian heard footsteps approach them. He turned an saw Cassius, head of the 16th Legion standing before him. The big shouldered man with black hair and green eyes gazed at the father and son with pain in his eyes.
"Yes Cassius, " said Vespasian
"We have news from Rome sir." he said in a low voice.
Vespasian noticed the scroll in Cassius hand. He reached for it and broke the seal on it and started to read it by the light of the fire. His eyes went wide at what he read.
"Titus", he called to his son.
Titus snapped out of his thoughts and turned towards his father.
"Yes father wha....", he stopped in mid sentence as he noticed the scroll bearing the symbol of the Senate.
"The Senate has proclaimed Vitellius Caesar, and us outlaws." Vespasian said ruefully.
Anger flashed in Titus's eyes "For Four YEARS we have bled in this gods foresaken place!," he cried, " and now the old men in the Senate have made that FAT BASTARD Vitellius Caesar and US outlaws!"
Titus kicked a stone and let out a yell of rage.
"Titus control yourself'." his father said with an stead voice.
"But father, look at what we have lost!" he cried
"If I may speak, sir", said Cassius
"Yes Cassius?" said Vespasian
"The Titus does have a point. The Senate is foolish to do this. We control the breadbasket of the empire and..."
Vespasian cut him off. " We control nothing. Judea seethes with unrest still. Syria has hundreds of riots breaking out everyday. And Egypt is a full scale revolt. Also Vitellius has all of Galba and Otho's legions under his control a very powerful army."
"Damn Parthians," muttered Titus, "They had not helped fan the flames of this revolt we could have stamped it out long ago!"
"Regardless", said Vespasian, " We have major problems to deal with. Remember the Parthians are gathering a large army and will be marching on Antioch within the month. There will be a day when we will get our revenge on Parthia."
The reality of their sitution hit the three men. Vespasian looked back at the fires that raged through the city of Jerusalem. Soon, he thought to himself, the city will be gone and nothing will be left. Just like the East we must put the revolt down or the East was lost. Everything would be lost, and his son would have died for nothing. I WILL NOT LET THAT HAPPEN!
"Cassius, gather the men let us tell them the words of the Senate." he said in a low cold voice.

Later on that night....

The Legions of the 16, 3, and 4 stood before the great pyres of the dead outside the walls of the burning city of Jerusalem. Many of them openly shed tears as their fallen comrades bodies burned. Included among them was their general and his son. Vespasian rose up from the ground off his knees and turned towards his men.
"My soliders, my sons, my brothers. For four years we have shed blood, fought, and died together. Some of us going back to Britiannnia."
Many of the veterans noded their heads remembering the battles of that far off isle.
Vespasian continued, " I have never been more proud of you all! Men like you, men like my son's, are what is best of Rome! But now my brave soliders I bring ill news."
The soliders listened intensely.
Vespasian raised the scroll from the Senate is his hand before his legions.
"By order of the Senate we have been declared outlaws by the new Caesar Vitellius and his lackeys!"
The legionarys stood in stunned silence at what they had just heard from their general.
"Men we have two choices lad out before us. We can march West and fight, but leave the East to chaos and die in the process of trying to reach Rome. Or we can stay in the East and build a new world a better world free of the foolishness of the Senate. I ask this of you my brave men WE CAN REALIZE A NEW DREAM! If not I will live by whatever you decide I will go by it."
Not a word was spoken as the wind whistled. Suddenly a centurion stepped foward and drew his gladius.
"HAIL VESPASIAN!!!!!!" he shouted
"HAIL VESPASIAN!!!!!!" the legions thundered
"HAIL OUR TRUE CAESAR!!!!!!!!!!"
Soon the chants washed over Vespasian as he wept. Titus placed a hand on his father's shoulder and whispered. "A new world, father, a new world, and a new dynasty."
Vespasin nodded and turned back towards the burning pyre of his dead son and the others.
"A New Empire." he said to himself.
 
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One big thing that I would like to bring up. The concept of "Emperor" or "Empire" was not developed yet. In fact, as recently as the reign of Nero, there were loyal generals granted the title of "Imperator" for military success. The ruler's title was "Caesar" and "Princeps", and at that point, most Romans still thought of their state as the Republic.

In other words, the scene with Vitellius being proclaimed Emperor, and with Vespasian's army founding a new "Empire"... not going to happen. The most you can get is for the Senate to recognize Vitellius as the new "Princeps", or as a "Caesar", but not in what is pretty much only a military title at this point. It was not until around this time that the title of "Imperator" was used exclusively as the ruler's title, and even then, it, and the consequent title of Augustus, did not fully entrench in the Roman public consciousness as the Imperial attributes until IInd century. Even then, in the IIIrd century there were Emperors like Trajan Decius who took the name of Trajan instead of (or in addition to) Augustus, trying to tie themselves to what was seen as the greatest ruler of Rome (Trajan and Augustus often vied for the first spot in that area of public affection).

And besides, at this point any would-be rebellion by Vespasian would result in march on Rome... in fact, one of Vespasian's legates already did lion's share of work by winning a few key engagements in his name, and Vespasian only has to pretty much waltz in and take over. Even with more support for Vitellius, that support is not going to last for a very long time due to Vitellius' apparent incompetence. Otho, now that is one person who, despite his implicity in the murder of Galba, could have kept the loyalty of the legions had he won, and could have possibly proven a real opponent to Vespasian. Galba had the air of legitimacy, albeit he was not a particularly energetic ruler.

Regardless of who ends up ruling the West, there will be a civil war, and both sides will try to claim all of Roman Republic/Empire at this point. The only way you can get an earlier split at this time would be if one side defeats another, but the defeated side retreats in an area where it cannot be dislodged from, while it has no ability to perform a counteroffensive (i.e. Sertorius in Spain in Ist century BC). And even then, such division would not last. Rome in IIIrd century was badly divided, and even then managed to gravitate back into a single entity. Rome in Ist century is VERY unlikely to split under the circumstances you are postulating.
 
The reason why the split stays is that the revolt in the Judea is much larger that OTL. Its not just their its also spread to parts of Syria. In Egypt the Egyptians, encourged by the Parthains, have revolted againts Roman rule. Also the Parthians are marching to Antioch with an army of 150,000 men as well, so Vespasian is trying to hold the East together. Another thing to take into account is the number of men that he has lost in Judea. He has had close to 50% killed or wounded so he really can not go West, he has to hold the East. In the next part of the prologue you will see what is happening in the West.;)
 

Nikephoros

Banned
Regardless of who ends up ruling the West, there will be a civil war, and both sides will try to claim all of Roman Republic/Empire at this point. The only way you can get an earlier split at this time would be if one side defeats another, but the defeated side retreats in an area where it cannot be dislodged from, while it has no ability to perform a counteroffensive (i.e. Sertorius in Spain in Ist century BC). And even then, such division would not last. Rome in IIIrd century was badly divided, and even then managed to gravitate back into a single entity. Rome in Ist century is VERY unlikely to split under the circumstances you are postulating.

Midgard, I have a question: Is there any way he can change this to make it more plausible? I would hate to see a good timeline abandoned because it isn't plausible.

If it isn't salvageable, is their a way to do this but at a different time with different people? Is something like this possible after say... ...Marcus Aurelius's death? Or is the earliest time to do this during the third century crisis?
 
Roman Senate Floor 71 A.D.

Vitellius threw down the dispatch in digust, and reached for a cup of wine. So, he thought, Vespasian has beaten the Parthians at Antioch with a smashing victory. To make matters worse the Egyptian revolt was finally put down. He had hoped that the "Great Revolt of The East", as it was being called, would destory Vespasian in the long run letting him pick up the pieces. It would seem that the "Mule Driver" had the favor of the gods. He drunk deeply, and picked up the dispatch again.
"Damn him," he muttered to himself, " he marches east on a great crusade to smash the Parthians."
He rose from his throne, and summoned the senators who waited outside. Five senators walked in averting his gaze flanked by fifthteen of his German guards.
"Well senators it would seem that Vespasian has won at Antioch."
Relief splashed across some of their faces, but they quickly wiped it off. Vitellius glared at them with his pig-like eyes.
"I see that you are releaved?" he said dripping with sarcasm
One senator stepped foward and nodded his head
"Caesar', began Senator Decius, " It is a victory for Rome no the less prehaps we can try to patch the differe......."
Vitellius cut him off with a wave of his hand. " They are rebels and the east is not part of Rome anymore. The West is our destiny."
He clapped his hands and three slaves walked in carrying a huge rolled up map. They lad it out on a great table and Vitellius beckoned the confused senators over to him.
"This is my dream," he began, " for to long we have been tied to the corrupt east. We saw it destroy Caesar, Anthony, and Alexander. No my good senators the west is our destiny."
He stabbed a pugy finger at the land that was across the Rhine River.
"Germania," he said "Germania is or key."
"How?,"said Senator Cato, " it nothing but a land of savages."
Vitellius's German guards grunted at the comment, but a glare from the Caesar stopped them.
"Senator Cato, tommorow I will go before the Senate and propose an invasion of Germania. The tribes that swear loyalty to us will be brought into the Empire and will be givin citizenship, and their familes will be aloud to settle in Gaul, as long as their sons and fathers swear to fight in the Legions. The nobles of the tribes will be granted the ranks of Senators and estates in Gaul. The tribes that do not will be wiped out. It is the "Carrot and Stick" method that we will use. Gentleman with in a generation Germaina will be apart of the Empire."
The mouths of the Senators hung open, at what they had just heard.
"YYYYOOOOOUUUU WOULD OFFER CITIZENSHIP TO LONG HAIRED GERMANS!!!!!"sputtered Senator Gracchus
"Senator," Vitellius said coolly, " The Germans givin the full benfits of Rome will give the Empire fighters that will give the Legions a sharper edge. With them under our banner the German threat will be gone for good."
Senator Decius glared at Vitellius, anger burning. "Do you not remember the words of the "Divine Augustus" Caesar, Rome must not expand across the Rhine. We all remember the disaster of Varrus."
"These are new time, Senator Varrus be damned."
Vitellius walked away from the table and paced the room the weight of what he had to say next weighing on him.
"Another part of my plans is this, Gentleman. I propose to offer full citzenship to all in the West, and a fair and eqaul tax that is collected every two years. With this the citizen need not fear the taxes and they will know when they are to happen."
"You go to far Vitellius!!!", screamed Gracchus," Remember it is the Senate that gave you the right to rule we can take it from you. This is madness!"
The sound of a sword being pulled from its sheath rang out ,and the impact of a blade hitting flesh echoed in the Senate floor. The Senators glanced at Gracchus as he sank to his knees blood spraying from his neck. A huge armoured German guard stood over him, an amused look on his face. Vitellius patted the German on his shoulder.
"Thank you Henrich."
Vitellius glared at the four remaining Senators, with an icy stare. " The old ways are dead. The sooner you in the Senate start to realize that the better it will be for you," he gestured towards Gracchus's twitching body, "Or you can end up like him."
The Senators lowered their heads, " Yes Caesar."
Vitellius smiled like a cobra, "Excellent gentleman. Now go back to the Senators at let them know of our glorious plan."
The broken men bowed and walked out. Vitellius walked back to his throne lost in his dreams glory and conquest.
 
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Gentleman with in a generation Germaina will be apart of the Empire."

He would talk about Germainia being part of Rome, not Empire.

It sounds more like you are resurrecting the Egyptian Empire, not splitting the Roman one.
 
Midgard, I have a question: Is there any way he can change this to make it more plausible? I would hate to see a good timeline abandoned because it isn't plausible.

If it isn't salvageable, is their a way to do this but at a different time with different people? Is something like this possible after say... ...Marcus Aurelius's death? Or is the earliest time to do this during the third century crisis?

The problem I see with the TL premise is that any such division would only be temporary at best, and is unlikely to last longer than 20-30 years. Sooner or later someone slips up, and the other half of the Empire (Republic) will descend on them right away.

I think the Year of Four Emperors is too early for something like this - it will require EVERYTHING (and I mean everything) going for it. If a semi-plausible method is to be designed for it, I would suggest Galba not being assassinated along with Lucius Piso (who he adopted to be his heir), but somehow managing to escape. He has one thing other pretenders do not - immediate legitimacy. Which means that Galba, unlike others, CAN set up a legitimate "government-in-exile", probably in Spain where he has a reasonable support base, and have that government survive for at least some time.

With Vitellius, it was fairly easy to tell he was not going to last long, and was not going to found a dynasty. Otho is an interesting possibility, a historical dark horse so to say - it seems that despite the brevity of his reign and little reliable information on him available, he had the beginnings of a very good Emperor, and had he managed to defeat Vitellius, he could have well been a founder of a dynasty. Someone like Vespasian, however, even if you have worse situation in the East, will only remain in the East temporarily. As soon as the situation is stabilized, he will move West in strength, and if the situation is NOT stabilized, then whoever rules in the West will make a go at the East.

Another possibility is the survival of Nero - I think he might have been able to drum up enough support in the East to maintain a state of sorts there, even if Rome itself hated him (at least the aristocracy did). With Nero vs Galba, you can have a long stalemate, developing eventually into two separate dynasties. But it would require a lot of things going for it, in other words, there has to be a very good reason why neither East nor West can take the war to the other.

In my opinion, any division of the Roman Empire/Republic at this time due to war or other conflict is not going to be permanent. The only division one can really have at this stage is due to political reasons, and the East is not sufficiently Romanized at this stage, with many still having notions of independence or autonomy instead of accepting Roman rule as a matter of cause. The soonest one can realistically have a political division would be probably late IInd century, and maybe even later - because until at least mid-IInd century, "Roman" East would not remain "Roman" for very long, and would be very likely to fragment into various smaller statelets. It was not until late IInd-early IIIrd centuries that the East was truly integrated into the Empire as a core of its territories, culture, and bureacracy.
 
Caracalla: I do have to say that I enjoy your writing, and your storytelling. While I am not entirely sold on the premise, you carry it through well, and rather vividly.

I do wonder why Vitellius, who, accordingly to the historians' descriptions, was pretty much an alcoholic with little in a way of long-term policy planning or the like, would suddenly show signs of ambition and foresight. Not to mention why he would manage to stay in power this long - his support in the army was by no means assured, and by then, in OTL, had Vespasian not removed him, someone else would have. In other words, Vitellius was a coup waiting to happen, even if Vespasian was not there anymore.

But do not let this deter you from the story. After all, it is a hell of a lot more plausible than some published AH.
 
Thank you for the kind words. As far as Vitellius having forsight, I read about the historian writings about him. I realized that in order for him to last I had to change somethings about him. The Vitellius of ATL is much more ruthless and cunning, kind of like the Emperor in the Star Wars Saga. The Rome that he will mold in his image will be vastly different. He has realized that from fighting along the Rhine that the German tribes, if yoked by Rome, will be a powerful ironfist in the Roman Army.
 
Lets not forget that in 69 both Vespasian's son Domitian and his older brother (Flavius Sabinus) were both in Rome. In OTL V.'s brother was Urban Prefect and seems to have tried to broker a peaceful abdication for Vitellius (Tacitus Historiae III.LXV). Domitian seems to have basically been kept under tight guard by Vitellius (Historiae III.LIX). In the end Sabinus died when the Capitoline was burned by a mob of Vitellians (Historiae III.LXXIV), but in OTL it seems that Vitellius never intended to harm Vespasian's family despite being his sworn enemy.

This charitable treatment may have been intentional or it may simply have been another symptom of Vitellius' general incompetance. If the Vitellius of this TL has what iot takes to run half of the Roman World, I'm sure he'll find a way to use Sabinus and Domitian to his advantage.

Of course, if he stupidly executes them right away, it might serve to only strengthen the resolve of Vespasian and Titus.
 
Remember Domitian is dead in this TL killed in the final battle for the Temple. He was there because the revolt in the east was so great Rome sent more legions than in OTL. Plus Vespasian wanted his sons with him.
 
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