Early Nazi German victory, no Holocaust?

If Germany won an early victory, say by 1942*, would the Holocaust still have happened? Because there were other plans I believe (from both the Nazis and the Allied nations) for the resettlement of the Jews in places like Madagascar, Uganda, Alaska, Siberia and even Manchuria (Fugu plan) and Mindanao in the Philippines. The militant Zionist group Lehi even offered to help the Nazis fight the Allies in exchange for Nazi cooperation in the immigration of European Jews to Palestine.

Of all these plans, the Madagascar Plan seemed the most viable to the Nazis and the reason it was discarded was because of the continued war, the Nazis had no passage to the island and without the help of the British, transporting the Jews to Madagascar was logistically impossible. Now if the Germans managed to secure British help in transporting the Jews to Madagascar, I believe it would have been succesful. There would have been no immediate need for the Nazis to have resorted to industrial genocide in the form of gas chambers.

Now what world would result with a victorious Nazi Germany but without the Holocaust? How will the Nazis deal with the Slavic populations without the idea of gas chambers? Would they go with the original idea (according to the Generalplan Ost) of deporting them to the Far East? But that would only mean supplying the rump USSR with manpower resources for a future resurgence. And what would happen to the Gypsies in this TL? And would the idea of gas chamber-based industrial genocide still emerge in Nazi Germany? Was it inevitable hat something like that would happen?

*They secure peace with Britain. Barbarossa is launched earlier in April and Moscow falls by the end of '41, Stalingrad follows in the next year, leading to Germany taking the Caucasus. The Red Army surrenders at this point and the USSR is reduced to a rump state in its Siberian territories.
 
Whats with the cliche that after the caucauses and Moscow fall its to the Urals!With Stalin and co.

The reason there was no Barbarossa in April was due to autumn rains not Greece as people suggest.And even i somehow that changes the Soviets are still going to fight fanatically with the war probably going on for decades like in Fatherland.

Its never as simple as the Soviets just deciding that theyre done they dont want anyone else hurt and are ready to become a powerless puppet which occupies a frozen wasteland.
 
Given that the actual executions did not begin until December, 1941, this is possible. Casualties would have been limited to those who died in confinement; not a negligible number, but not like the Holocaust.
 
There would have been no immediate need for the Nazis to have resorted to industrial genocide in the form of gas chambers.
Largely because forced deportation to Madagascar would have killed the overwhelming majority of the Jews. Madagascar's population only reached over six million in 1964; to dump several million European Jews on the island could have caused nothing other than a massive manufactured population crisis that would have made the entire island look like the Warsaw ghetto.
 
I do not agree that executions did not start until December 1941. The Wansee Conference of December 1941 was called by Heydrich to deal with the "problems" and "inefficiencies" caused by the relatively disorganized mass murders being conducted in the Baltic states and Ukraine by the Einzatz Kommandos and the deaths occuring from disease and starvation in the General Government. Heydrich wanted to systematize and regularize what had already started and, of course, assume administrative control himself in order to expand his power base.
I also do not agree that the Madagascar Plan was workable. The resources required to transport all European Jews several thousand miles over seas would have been gigantic and would have been difficult if not impossible for a Germany still fighting even a guerilla war on the Eastern Front.
However, given the use of the Nazis of cover stories and propaganda ploys such as the "model concentration camp" at Teresinstadt, I would not put it past them to "announce" that they were moving the Jews into transit camps for preparation for sailings to Madagascar and then to actually send a few thousand "lucky" Jews there while disposing of the rest.
I believe that the industrialization of the the Holocaust was caused by a combination of Nazi ideology ("the Jews are germs in the Arayan body which must be destroyed") and a strange economic analysis ("it is cheaper to kill them on a mass scale than work them to death or wait for them to die out by starvation and disease"). I therefore believe that an industrialized Holocaust is probable even in a Nazi Germany victorious TL but the Nazis might not have been in as much of a hurry without the Allies closing in on them.
 
Not really. Himmler had already seen to it that senior SS officers who hadn't taken part in the massacres in Poland gained 'experience' in the Einsatzgruppen right from the beginning of Barbarossa.

Babi Yar was in September, nineteen forty one.

The mass deportations to the death camps were merely that kind of massacre done on an industrial scale.
 
Given that the actual executions did not begin until December, 1941, this is possible. Casualties would have been limited to those who died in confinement; not a negligible number, but not like the Holocaust.

Do you not have access to google?

Or is there something about your beliefs you're not telling us?
 
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