Early Modern Aztec Empire

That's good. The main thing i see is that you need to decide where exactly the Aztecs are going. To the east would be logical, but the Tarascans are likely to be right there. The South might be the best choice, but no matter what direction you choose, it would really help to flesh out the negotiations that happen between the Aztecs and the vassal states they flee to.

Yes, but how that resistance was applied will lead to an entirely different set of geopolitical realities for any group of settlers. To give just one example, with a different De Soto expedition, you're going to see a number of changes in the Southeast, quite probably entirely different set of tribes present, since all of the modern tribes came together in the 17th century from refugees and survivors of those destroyed by De Soto's diseases.

Considering the tenuos Spanish control of a number of areas in North America (New Mexico Early on, Texas, California) any problem they face in Mexico is likely to significantly alter their long term plans.

At this point I think were beyond butterflies and into clearly demonstratable effects of this change.

Well, the problem with this that I see is that the Mayans were not unified. At all. I mean, how is he going to get all the city states to follow his lead, city states that have spent the last couple of centuries fighting each other and are mortal enemies? I mean I'm not saying it couldn't happen, but you're going to have to give a really good explanation.

I agree, although depending on how concentrated the evacuees are, you could have a large portion escape.

What do you mean by this? Because there certainly is such a thing as linguistics. :confused:

Oh crap I apologize. I meant immunity sorry.
 
Not bad. It doesn't really read much like a wiki, but overall it's pretty good (if brief... :p Give us more!)
well i guess i could go into more detail, but ill do that when i finish up their history as a whol

But you asked about plausibility and I have to say, I think it works fine. Some forsight (and luck) on the part of the Aztecs could have gone a long way in staging such a resistance just as you have described. Well done.
thank you :)

That is if they can keep some people from dying of smallpox and hire some mutinous Spanish troops to fight for them as mercenaries (the promise of gold and wives would work, eh?) which I don't see being implausible with Guerrero's help.
yeah, i was thinking of that, too. i did a little bit more work on the resisttance part last night and, after learning the smallpox vaccine didnt appear until the 1700s, decided to make it so that they held off their counterattack for a while, trying to get rid of the smallpox through isolation and native medicines to mixed results

Something happens that gets Gonzalo Guerrero completely anti-Hernan Cortes. He mobilizes the Mayans in a unification and resistance initiative and then hears of the massacre in the Main Temple which prompts him to, with his wife's blessing, send reinforcements of Spanish traitors and Mayan warriors to Cuauhtémoc. These troops arrived in time to surprise and devastate Cortes' men and their native allies on the Tlacopan causeway in what became known as La Noche Triste in which Cortes himself was injured and his army was greatly reduced. Cortes, however, was determined to take Tenochtitlan and soon would march towards the urban warfare of that town which would prove his downfall.
i had planned that the first attempt at invading the yucatan, and therefore mayan lands, is what gets guerrero moving

In August of 1521, the new Aztec resistance supplemented by Spaniards, Chetumal Mayans, and Tlatelolcan men, women, and children; led with the same skill that Guerrero had honed defeating the Moors years earlier, scored their largest victory against Cortes: The Victory at Tenochtitlan.

While chasing the Spanish out of the city, many of Cortes' men turned to Guererro and Cuauhtémoc's side, not satisfied following the failed Cortes to Spain when there was clearly gold in Aztec/Mayan lands and lured by the payment of food, gold, and wives of fair skin. Those who did not turn were sacrificed and Cortes himself was immolated in the Main Temple. There was much celebration.
i was planning to make cortez be hailed as a hero at first, only for him to be scorned when the aztecs return. basically, the spanish back home would be saying, "Hooray for Cortez! He brought much wealth!.....Huh?! What the hell?! Cortez, you idiot, you didnt kill them!"

Geronimo De Aguilar forsook Cortes and joined his old friend Guerrero in the new unified Mayo-Aztec resistance on the word that his old friend and fellow former captive would renew his faith. This Guerrero did and the united forces began to work to ensure survival of future attacks.
now this is interesting. this could work towards the modern aztec religion, which ive already decided will be not entirely aztec in origin and instead have mixes from a few other religions, notably a bit from christianity (in fact, the tlaxcalans actually accepted God into their pantheon and cortez managed to convert some of their leaders, supposedly). i imagine after the spanish attack and cnquest, many aztecs and later mayans would look poorly upon christianity, but maybe aguilar would convince them that it isnt all bad and maybe even convince them that cortez is a devil and therefore someone who is not to be trusted under any circumstances (he already tricked teh aztecs before, why SHOULD they trust him? this would just help give justification to younger generations who would think, "Yknow, maybe this Cortez guy isnt so bad after all..."

While rebuilding, arming, and strengthening of the military commensed in earnest, the Mayaztec forces pursued and conquered the Tlaxcala, officially ridding the surrounding area of immediate enemies and threats while also giving the new units of Mayaztecs more much needed practice in "new war."
yeah, i was planning to bring in more of the tlaxcalans. iirc, i wrote on the article that they would eventually be all but extinct due to a combination of the mayaztecs killing them and being affected by smallpox and other diseases that the spanish brought upon them. since the tlaxcala were also allowed by the spanish to carry firearms and ride horses and would have presumably had armor to go with it, they would probably be common victims of teh resistance forces and a good way for them to steal technology and horses: a small company of tlaxcala trot down a road, and one of them swats at a "bug" on his neck, only to fall off his horse a few seconds later, dead, from a poison dart, and the rest follow suit, then some mayaztecs and spanish traitors emerge and loot them of their armor and weapons

Within months, Cuauhtémoc and his wife Tecuichpo were expecting an heir to be betrothed to one of Guerrero's children creating a possibility of a feasible joint heir to Mayan and Aztec thrones. There was now much for the Aztec peoples to work and fight for, they had been given a second chance. Cuauhtémoc took much from Moctezuma, his predecessor, reinstating much of the previous Aztec lands and reincorporating other tribes into the empire, and with the help of Guerrero, modernized much of his army. Cuauhtémoc's wife, inspired perhaps by Aguilar and Guerrero even began flirting with Catholocism around this time. Similarly, Tlacotzin is also flirting with Europhiliac Catholic leanings as he continues as counselor to Cuauhtémoc and serves both him and Guerrero as emissary to the Mayan people, riding a white horse and wearing a combination Spanish/Aztec/Mayan uniform, both gifted to him by Guerrero. Mayaztec is merely a figure of speech at this point of course, as there is as of yet no unity in the empires... yet...

Once this occurs the assimilation of both Empires into one another while trying to keep this resistance strong will be interesting...
i was planning for the aztecs to be the dominant group in the resistance, since they were the ones who founded it, but by the time of their final war of independence (with the help of the americans), theres no real distinction between them all in much the same way that the greater part of white america is no longer really distinguished from each other: while trying not to sound insulting, white americans are mongrels, while the aztecs are no longer really mayans or aztecs or apache or spanish-americans, but are more correctly aztec mongrels. but like white america, there would still be familial distinctions overshadowed by a collective "aztec" culture that is a mishmash of many different cultures of the region

It would take about two to two and a half years for the Spanish to return in force to attempt to defeat this alliance and they will inevitably win... eventually. However, depending on the survival of these Mayaztec heirs and the course of flight to a new stronghold as "headquarters" (towards the Yucatan would leave the new resistance strong for centuries but not eternally, towards the north there is the possibility of recruiting the Chichimeca, continuing a strong offensive against the Spaniards, and opening the doors wide for a little more recruitment in the Amerindian tribes of what would possibly become America...) a strong resistance could continue to disrupt Spanish conquest and security for long enough to assist in these Spanish/Mexican-American wars, which is what I assumed you wanted.
yeah, i was planning for the aztec resistannce to eventually try to recruit some tribes from the american southwest, probably along the lines of the apache and the navajo, but i bet that, depending on their temperament towards the aztecs, that the comanche wouldnt be out of the question

I had a minute or two to spare and wanted to help so what do you think?
your help is very much appreciated. thank you :D

Considering the fact that Europeans did not even have vaccination until the 18th century (and even then it was only for smallpox), that's not going to be a viable option.
well i didnt know that when i posted that :p:eek: what do you think would be some plausible means for trying to counter it? could some kind of native medicine be used? i imagine that, but around the time of the american revolution, though, they would be at least relatively resistant to it, and thats around when the vaccine would come up anyway

That's good. The main thing i see is that you need to decide where exactly the Aztecs are going. To the east would be logical, but the Tarascans are likely to be right there. The South might be the best choice, but no matter what direction you choose, it would really help to flesh out the negotiations that happen between the Aztecs and the vassal states they flee to.
basically, they just go to the other tribes, their former vassal and tributary states, with humility rather than splendor and basically say "Look, we know we've had our differences and we sacrificed a lot of you, but the Spanish will kill ALL of you and not give it another thought. If we can beat them, we won sacrifice you anymore." (the aztecs would most likely have lied here; i also plan for them to pretty much demonize the tlaxcala, maybe even in a nazi-like sense and blame alot of their new problems on the tlaxcala. history doesnt have to be pretty)

Yes, but how that resistance was applied will lead to an entirely different set of geopolitical realities for any group of settlers. To give just one example, with a different De Soto expedition, you're going to see a number of changes in the Southeast, quite probably entirely different set of tribes present, since all of the modern tribes came together in the 17th century from refugees and survivors of those destroyed by De Soto's diseases.
well im honestly not making that a major focus. as far as im concerned, US history itself pretty much goes as it did normally under after 1900 (thats when the most changes to their own timeline come up)

Considering the tenuos Spanish control of a number of areas in North America (New Mexico Early on, Texas, California) any problem they face in Mexico is likely to significantly alter their long term plans.
i imagine that, just for simplicity, the spanish manage to colonize these regions anyway through sheer weight of numbers and maybe by sailing around the continent to reach places where the aztecs dont really have much chance of reaching. by the time they do, the spanish would have converted those natives and counter-propagandized the aztecs

Well, the problem with this that I see is that the Mayans were not unified. At all. I mean, how is he going to get all the city states to follow his lead, city states that have spent the last couple of centuries fighting each other and are mortal enemies? I mean I'm not saying it couldn't happen, but you're going to have to give a really good explanation.
this is what we call "suspension of disbelief" :p jk, i dunno. maybe the spanish invasion makes them decide that the enemy of their enemy is their friend, but individual tensions still exist, and guerrero finally rallies them as a (pretty-much) unified force and marches them to the aztecs, where they join forces. there would be other tribes as well, maybe even former enemies like the zapotec(i know thats a bit implausible), but the union of the aztecs and mayans would be the most significant

I agree, although depending on how concentrated the evacuees are, you could have a large portion escape.
the basic idea is that the aztecs mostly escape from tenochtitlan, including the greater portion of their military, but a couple hundred or so defenders stay behind to man fortifications and a bunch of war canoes to take as many spanish and tlaxcalans with them as possible while the rest get out. by now, theyve been affected by smallpox and a fair number of them are dead or dying
 
i had planned that the first attempt at invading the yucatan, and therefore mayan lands, is what gets guerrero moving

The ideas aren't mutually exclusive though, are they? Guerrero couldn't care less about the Aztecs, even if the Yucatan invasions "got him moving" so you would need a reason for him to assist the Aztecs in the spring/summer of 1521. The Spanish invade the Yucatan about the same time as the massacre in the Main Temple and Guerrero is pissed enough to gather a Mayan army in assistance of both the Yucatan (which he'll feel they can hold) and Tenochtitlan (which he'll figure is more susceptible to destruction considering...)



i was planning to make cortez be hailed as a hero at first, only for him to be scorned when the aztecs return. basically, the spanish back home would be saying, "Hooray for Cortez! He brought much wealth!.....Huh?! What the hell?! Cortez, you idiot, you didnt kill them!"

No. Kill Cortes, he is a major sh*thead. He knocked up Moctezuma's whore daughter who converted to Catholocism for him. In the situation I have created, I redeemed her as the mother of the Aztec line but I need the homicidal rapist Cortes dead for sure.

now this is interesting. this could work towards the modern aztec religion, which ive already decided will be not entirely aztec in origin and instead have mixes from a few other religions, notably a bit from christianity (in fact, the tlaxcalans actually accepted God into their pantheon and cortez managed to convert some of their leaders, supposedly). i imagine after the spanish attack and cnquest, many aztecs and later mayans would look poorly upon christianity, but maybe aguilar would convince them that it isnt all bad and maybe even convince them that cortez is a devil and therefore someone who is not to be trusted under any circumstances (he already tricked teh aztecs before, why SHOULD they trust him? this would just help give justification to younger generations who would think, "Yknow, maybe this Cortez guy isnt so bad after all..."

A Mayaztec religion still peppered in the new faith of Catholicism is fascinating to me, especially when there is less success in the Spanish conquest. I like this.

yeah, i was planning to bring in more of the tlaxcalans. iirc, i wrote on the article that they would eventually be all but extinct due to a combination of the mayaztecs killing them and being affected by smallpox and other diseases that the spanish brought upon them. since the tlaxcala were also allowed by the spanish to carry firearms and ride horses and would have presumably had armor to go with it, they would probably be common victims of teh resistance forces and a good way for them to steal technology and horses: a small company of tlaxcala trot down a road, and one of them swats at a "bug" on his neck, only to fall off his horse a few seconds later, dead, from a poison dart, and the rest follow suit, then some mayaztecs and spanish traitors emerge and loot them of their armor and weapons

Yes, the Tlaxcalans were damn near eradicated by the Aztecs prior to Cortes' intervention anyway, and after joining the White Devil they would be even more hated by the Aztecs. The Mayaztec resistance would rectify this situation as soon as possible (which I assume would be immediately following Cortes' defeat.)

i was planning for the aztecs to be the dominant group in the resistance, since they were the ones who founded it, but by the time of their final war of independence (with the help of the americans), theres no real distinction between them all in much the same way that the greater part of white america is no longer really distinguished from each other: while trying not to sound insulting, white americans are mongrels, while the aztecs are no longer really mayans or aztecs or apache or spanish-americans, but are more correctly aztec mongrels. but like white america, there would still be familial distinctions overshadowed by a collective "aztec" culture that is a mishmash of many different cultures of the region

The Aztecs are the main group in the resistance, especially since they are more organized. But remember, most of their leadership and generals have been murdered in the Main Temple and a Mayan Moor-killer (Guerrero) is just the thing to reorganize their military. He would inevitably be one of the more powerful leaders of the Aztec resistance (in spite of his being a Spaniard AND a Mayan) and therefore could integrate unified Mayan tribes into the Aztec Empire.

yeah, i was planning for the aztec resistannce to eventually try to recruit some tribes from the american southwest, probably along the lines of the apache and the navajo, but i bet that, depending on their temperament towards the aztecs, that the comanche wouldnt be out of the question

Good idea. The Yucatan and even south towards the Incas would be the smartest directions for the Imperial Resistance to head, but it's far less interesting. Go north, my son...

And don't forget to include the Chichimeca... a few years after Tenochtitlan they launched a pretty successful war against the Spanish conquistadors. The Mixton War, was it?

your help is very much appreciated. thank you :D

I'm really enjoying getting to help!

well i didnt know that when i posted that :p:eek: what do you think would be some plausible means for trying to counter it? could some kind of native medicine be used? i imagine that, but around the time of the american revolution, though, they would be at least relatively resistant to it, and thats around when the vaccine would come up anyway.

Snottersdad's Mongols in the Americas TL had a pretty interesting way of dealing with this and it's not too ASB to apply it here. Go check it out, it has to do with scab powder (I know, right?) but it's technically a pretty feasible way to combat the foreign diseases.

EDIT: Also, I know this is your TL but please let the invasion of Tenochtitlan be unsuccessful instead of mounting an escape from the city. At least for now... There needs to be cohesion in the ranks of the resistance for it to even resist and besides, when the Spanish return for round two, they would stomp Tenochtitlan allowing for your urban retreat.

It's just that we need a good two years here for the Mayans and Aztecs to come together, eradicate the Tlaxcala, and learn guns and horses well enough to create a good resistance force while they wait on the return of the Spanish. Then in 1523, Tenochtitlan falls...

...and perhaps the Spaniards allow for the now traitorous counsellor Tlacotzin (who has converted fully to not just Catholocism but also Spainophilia) to govern. Tlacotzin would be the first target of the Imperial Resistance of the Mayaztec... a government in exile.

Ooooh... GOOD STUFF!
 
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The ideas aren't mutually exclusive though, are they? Guerrero couldn't care less about the Aztecs, even if the Yucatan invasions "got him moving" so you would need a reason for him to assist the Aztecs in the spring/summer of 1521. The Spanish invade the Yucatan about the same time as the massacre in the Main Temple and Guerrero is pissed enough to gather a Mayan army in assistance of both the Yucatan (which he'll feel they can hold) and Tenochtitlan (which he'll figure is more susceptible to destruction considering...)
well i was planning to make it so that the first strike of the aztec resistance would be about a year after the fall of tenochtitlan; the aztecs and their newer allies would still be licking their wounds both from the battles themselves and from the smallpox. but some assistance from guerrero early on sounds good

No. Kill Cortes, he is a major sh*thead. He knocked up Moctezuma's whore daughter who converted to Catholocism for him. In the situation I have created, I redeemed her as the mother of the Aztec line but I need the homicidal rapist Cortes dead for sure.
it is MY timeline after all. cortez is still gonna be demonized and presumably killed (maybe even by cuauhtemoc himself) or, if not that, be dragged back to spain in chains and executed. regardless of which path is taken, cortez is ultimately slandered and never regarded as a hero because, in spite of his original success, he would ultimately cause more problem than he solved

A Mayaztec religion still peppered in the new faith of Catholicism is fascinating to me, especially when there is less success in the Spanish conquest. I like this.
exactly. theres also actually historical precedence, iirc: alot of the natives in many regions have added their own customs and such to christianity after conversion (though i cant really think of any examples at the moment). i plan for the aztec state religion after they achieve independence to be a mix of many of the actualy mesoamerican religions (which are already pretty similar to one another, iirc; its like the difference between greek and roman mythology) as well as some more northerly amerindian traits and a little bit of christianity

Yes, the Tlaxcalans were damn near eradicated by the Aztecs prior to Cortes' intervention anyway, and after joining the White Devil they would be even more hated by the Aztecs. The Mayaztec resistance would rectify this situation as soon as possible (which I assume would be immediately following Cortes' defeat.)
it would be a gradual destruction; i was planning to have the resistance be operating a geurilla war, basically hitting their enemies with darts from the bushes and then finishing them off once the poison kicked in, but once they get guns (both by stealing from the spanish and tlaxcala, as well as later by buying them from spain's enemies), they would properly ambush them. through a combination of personally attacking the tlaxcala and introduced spanish disease, the tlaxcala WOULD eventually be wiped out

The Aztecs are the main group in the resistance, especially since they are more organized. But remember, most of their leadership and generals have been murdered in the Main Temple and a Mayan Moor-killer (Guerrero) is just the thing to reorganize their military. He would inevitably be one of the more powerful leaders of the Aztec resistance (in spite of his being a Spaniard AND a Mayan) and therefore could integrate unified Mayan tribes into the Aztec Empire.
maybe i'll have guerrero send some warriors to help the aztecs in their initial resistance but only mobilizes himself and the whole of the mayan military after the first real invasion by the spanish (around 1527, according to my research)

Good idea. The Yucatan and even south towards the Incas would be the smartest directions for the Imperial Resistance to head, but it's far less interesting. Go north, my son...

And don't forget to include the Chichimeca... a few years after Tenochtitlan they launched a pretty successful war against the Spanish conquistadors. The Mixton War, was it?
chichimeca it is. ill have to look into them.

Snottersdad's Mongols in the Americas TL had a pretty interesting way of dealing with this and it's not too ASB to apply it here. Go check it out, it has to do with scab powder (I know, right?) but it's technically a pretty feasible way to combat the foreign diseases.
ill look into that. and dont worry about ASB-esque stuff; theres a bit of planned fantasy to go in with this :D
 
oh, theres another thing i need to know: what should the condition of tenochtitlan be? historically, cortez razed the entire city, including the main temple and palace, and simply built mexico city on top of it. at the moment, ive got it where he attempts to do that but aztecs, against better judgment, try to stop the construction process by attacking the workers, sometimes to disastrous results. given this thus far, what do you all think would be the best move for cortez to make? at the moment, im thinking taht cortez leaves just teh main temple standing but razes everything else. if not, the temple and the other important religious and government buildings would remain and be rebuilt in the 19th century after the empire is reinstated
 
oh, theres another thing i need to know: what should the condition of tenochtitlan be? historically, cortez razed the entire city, including the main temple and palace, and simply built mexico city on top of it. at the moment, ive got it where he attempts to do that but aztecs, against better judgment, try to stop the construction process by attacking the workers, sometimes to disastrous results. given this thus far, what do you all think would be the best move for cortez to make? at the moment, im thinking taht cortez leaves just teh main temple standing but razes everything else. if not, the temple and the other important religious and government buildings would remain and be rebuilt in the 19th century after the empire is reinstated

Why not just have the Aztecs attack Cortes in the first time and go down much more quicker and with less blood-shed? And the main temple is probably going to be destroyed, there's no way it would exist.
 
i wrote up some more on the resistance movement. this is everything from after the siege of tenochtitlan:

The Early Resistance Movement

Cortés and his allies enjoyed a year of relative peace following the Siege of Tenōchtitlān. It is believed that the reason there were only isolated incidents during this time was because many of the Aztecs were still suffering and recovering from the outbreak of smallpox that had descended upon Tenōchtitlān, and there are documented cases by Spaniards of Aztecs attempting to treat and cure smallpox with native medicines, to mixed results. While the Aztecs were licking their wounds, the Spanish and their indigenous allies were on the move. Tlaxcala in particular was a well-received group allied to Spain, and enjoyed more privileges than most of the other tribes. They were instrumental in much of the colonization done by Spain and were allowed to carry firearms and ride horses, all provided to them by Cortés. Consequently, one of the Aztec's first moves upon their return was to demonize the Tlaxcalans as traitors to the other people of the region.

It wasn't until late in 1522 that the resistance made its first real move. A Spanish patrol making its rounds in August one day came across a convoy that had been attacked. All of the merchants were dead, but the soldiers who had accompanied them were missing, and all of the supplies, even the cart and the horses, were gone. Clutched in one of the merchant's hands was a page torn from an Aztec codex with warnings in both Spanish and Nāhuatl that were written in the blood of the slain merchants: the Aztecs were back. While still staging geurilla strikes and skirmishes against the Spanish, the Aztecs had also been returning to their former tributary states to ask for help and be chosen as the lesser of two evils. Over time, the old tensions between the Aztecs and their former subjects lessened and eventually disappeared entirely. The resistance was led by Cuauhtémoc, the newly appointed Aztec emperor, who was a nephew of the late Moctezuma II. Early on in the days of the resistance, the Aztecs received help from a few other native groups that had already been affected by the incursions of the Spanish. Notably, a Mayan war leader sent some of his warriors to help the Aztec resistance, who by now were no longer just composed of the Aztecs but also numerous other natives and even some Spaniards who had come to the conclusion that Cortés was insane and deserted. These defecting Spaniards were often met with hostility at first, and many were thought to have been killed on sight, but after a while, and with the help of translators, more and more Spanish deserters were brought in to help the resistance. Their inclusion among the rebels helped not only to strengthen their numbers, but also gave the Aztecs a logistical advantage in knowing where to attack and when.

However, there were repercussions to the entry of Spaniards to the resistance: the smallpox that the natives had tried so hard to remove from their midst returned with one of the Spanish soldiers and they suffered as a result. Legend has it that some of the Spanish suggested inhaling powder from the smallpox scabs through the nose as a means of trying to prevent smallpox, to mixed results. The resistance remained a minor threat to Cortés and his forces for several more years, and, while he had been criticized by the Spanish Crown for not destroying the Aztecs, Cortés was nonetheless made the governor of México, or "New Spain," though Cortés reportedly tried to paint a more sympathetic image for himself by personally claiming and stating in his biography that he was treated unjustly. Today, though, it is thought that Cortés was simply greedy and arrogant, and blew the criticisms of him out of proportion, and even claiming that he was underappreciated for his deeds in the New World. Cortés was further frustrated when four royal officials from Spain were appointed to assist in his governance. It is thought that the king of Spain did this deliberately just to spite Cortés. As governor of the newly conquered lands, Cortés began the construction of México City directly over Tenōchtitlān, much to the anger of the Aztec resistance, who on numerous occasions, and against the better judgment of the rebel leaders, attacked the construction, sometimes to disastrous results. Even so, Cortés continued with the destruction of the original city and erected new, European-style buildings in their place. This only fueled Aztec hatred of Cortés and the Spanish who remained loyal to him, and a new wave of opposition appeared in the years to come.

The Mayaztec Alliance

Around 1526, the Spanish began their next major conquest in the New World: the invasion of the Yucatán, and the subjugation of the Mayans. It was around this time that Cortés and the Spanish began real efforts to convert the natives to Christianity and tried to grow sugar in the region. México became one of the corners in the transatlantic slave trade, and the first African slaves arrived on the continent. While the Spanish attempted to establish a colony in what would one day become South Carolina, Cortés himself marched on the Yucatán.

Almost as soon as Spanish soldiers set foot in the Yucatán, the Mayans began to fight back. Mayan warriors would leap out of hiding when the Spaniards approached and stab them to death with spears. However, these attacks usually ended disastrously because of the Spaniard's superior weaponry. Therefore, in 1527, another leader appeared in the resistance, and from an unlikely source. Though Spaniards had become members of the resistance practically from its creation, the Aztecs and other natives were surprised when a company of Mayans led by a tattooed white man in full battle dress approached one day. It was Gonzalo Guerrero, one of the Spaniards who had been shipwrecked in 1511. Years before, Cortés had tried to convince Guerrero to join him, but Guerrero had refused because, by that time in his life, Guerrero had become an accomplished Maya war leader and had almost entirely assimilated into Mayan culture, and even had three children with a Mayan wife. Though he was still Catholic, Guerrero no longer held any love or loyalty for Spain, especially after seeing the devastating that his former countrymen had inflicted upon the Aztecs and knowing that it could very well happen to the Mayans.

Though at first distrustful of the Spaniard-turned-Mayan, Cuauhtémoc had Guerrero brought before him. If the Spanish defectors before him had been helpful, Guerrero was like a walking miracle to Cuauhtémoc. He held great knowledge of Spanish battle plans and made suggestions for how to most effectively harm the Spanish by stealing firearms, armor, and horses from them. When Cortés' forces heard of a tattooed Spaniard leading Mayan soldiers aligned to the resistance, Cortés came to the conclusion that it was Guerrero and declared him a traitor to his country. When Gerónimo de Aguilar, the other shipwrecked survivor and an old friend of Guerrero, heard of this, he had a change of heart. Some speculate that this may have been in part because Doña Marina, the native woman who had been one of Cortés' personal translators and by now his mistress, had learned Spanish herself, so Aguilar's role as translator had effectively ended, and he chose to forsake Cortés' forces and returned to Guerrero.

Aguilar was a monk, and his presence in the resistance movement had a profound effect on the natives' views of Christianity. After the conversion of many of the Tlaxcalans and what Cortés did to the Aztecs, many of the natives looked very poorly on Christianity. When Aguilar came to the resistance, he not only tended to the religious needs of the Spaniards that had deserted Cortés, but also helped to soften the beliefs of the natives. He worked to convince the natives that Cortés was not to be trusted under any circumstances, even going so far as demonizing the governor. The leadership of Cuauhtémoc and Guerrero, coupled with the unifying force of Christianity supplied by Aguilar, allowed the Aztecs, Mayans, Spanish traitors, and other natives to effectively join forces in spite of past differences. The resistance came to be known as the "Mayaztecs" because of their allegiances and because of Spanish confusion over their identities, though the resistance gladly adopted this term. Within months, Cuauhtémoc and his wife, Tecuichpo, were expecting an heir to be born in the hopes of betrothing their child to one of Guerrero's, on the Mayan leader's suggestion, to create a feasible heir to both the Mayan and Aztec thrones. The Aztecs and the other natives now had something to work and fight for, having been given a second chance. With Guerrero's help, the rebel army modernized with stolen rifles and horses. During this time, Cuauhtémoc's wife began to take an interest in Catholicism, perhaps being inspired by Aguilar, and was eventually baptized by the friar as Isabel Moctezuma, though she was only known by this name to the Spanish among the resistance. Similarly, Tlacotzin--one of the few remaining Aztec nobility--began flirting with Catholicism as well and was eventually baptized as Juan Velázquez Tlacotzin while still serving as a counselor to Cuauhtémoc, and served both him and Guerrero as emissary to the Mayan people, riding a white horse and wearing a combination of Aztec, Mayan, and Spanish dress, both of which were given to him by Guerrero.

The resistance was quite successful for the first two and a half years of the union between the Aztecs and the Maya, but by that time the Spanish Crown had sent reinforcements to México and brought about a crushing defeat of the Mayaztec Alliance in 1529, which was scattered following the battle. However, neither Cuauhtémoc nor Guerrero were captured or killed. Cortés had managed to keep himself in México until this first defeat of the Mayaztecs, after which he returned to Spain to try to appeal to the Holy Roman Emperor and King of Spain, Charles V. Cortés returned to México in 1531 as Marquis of the Oaxaca Valley. By this time, though, the Mayaztecs had reorganized themselves


annd then, BLANK. WRITER'S BLOCK. any suggestions for what direction i can go in, or any changes to be made for plausibility?
 
well i was planning to make it so that the first strike of the aztec resistance would be about a year after the fall of tenochtitlan; the aztecs and their newer allies would still be licking their wounds both from the battles themselves and from the smallpox. but some assistance from guerrero early on sounds good

Yes, I wish the first draft had contained earlier Guerrero assistance. Maybe he sends troops and supplies and arrives in Tenochtitlan to organize their defenses but it comes too late, Tenochtitlan falls, the Aztecs scatter to recruit fellow natives and the Aztec Royalty travels to Yucatan with Guerrero to be protected by the Mayans while they regroup?

Just spitballing ideas here, because I like your thread.

it is MY timeline after all. cortez is still gonna be demonized and presumably killed (maybe even by cuauhtemoc himself) or, if not that, be dragged back to spain in chains and executed. regardless of which path is taken, cortez is ultimately slandered and never regarded as a hero because, in spite of his original success, he would ultimately cause more problem than he solved

It IS your TL and I'm sorry for being presumptuous. I just really, really hate Cortes...:mad:

exactly. theres also actually historical precedence, iirc: alot of the natives in many regions have added their own customs and such to christianity after conversion (though i cant really think of any examples at the moment). i plan for the aztec state religion after they achieve independence to be a mix of many of the actualy mesoamerican religions (which are already pretty similar to one another, iirc; its like the difference between greek and roman mythology) as well as some more northerly amerindian traits and a little bit of christianity

Very cool. I would love to see what sort of horrific sacrificial inquisition could arise there after the death of Aguilar and up until Mayaztec Reformation!

it would be a gradual destruction; i was planning to have the resistance be operating a geurilla war, basically hitting their enemies with darts from the bushes and then finishing them off once the poison kicked in, but once they get guns (both by stealing from the spanish and tlaxcala, as well as later by buying them from spain's enemies), they would properly ambush them. through a combination of personally attacking the tlaxcala and introduced spanish disease, the tlaxcala WOULD eventually be wiped out

Yeah, if you're going the whole "Tenochtitlan falls" route, then more than likely the Tlaxcala would survive for quite some time.

maybe i'll have guerrero send some warriors to help the aztecs in their initial resistance but only mobilizes himself and the whole of the mayan military after the first real invasion by the spanish (around 1527, according to my research)

That sounds not only awesome but also incredibly plausible.

chichimeca it is. ill have to look into them.[/QUOTE]

Like I eluded, I don't know much about them but they existed between North Mexica and the Great Plains roughly (more in Mexica, though) and staged a relatively successful resistance for a time, they would absolutely be next in line to assimilate into the Imperial Resistance and what's more: This additional rebellion would occur much sooner than OTL's Mixton War (1540's and the Chichimeca Wars in 1550) if the Chichimeca received Mayaztec assistance in 1529 (which is when the trouble with the Chichimeca started...)

ill look into that. and dont worry about ASB-esque stuff; theres a bit of planned fantasy to go in with this :D

Great start! Keep it up.

Also note that Aguilar owned the New World's first printing press IOTL, it might be interesting to still have him hold this honor and use the press to better organize and educate the Imperial Resistance.
 
Great start! Keep it up.

Also note that Aguilar owned the New World's first printing press IOTL, it might be interesting to still have him hold this honor and use the press to better organize and educate the Imperial Resistance.

Doesn't that require someone who understands Nahuatl to create a printing press that can work with the Aztec writing system in order to supposedly keep up resentment among the native Mesoamerican populations for their Spanish overlords? Or perhaps someone who puts the Nahuatl language into Latin script?
 
for my own sake, i planned to latinize nahuatl, but the printing press (just added it to their history, btw :)) would also justify that. it would presumably be a very long process, but its not like aguilar would be doing much else. a latinized New Nahuatl language, with aforementioned loanwords from spanish, would definitely be a plus for the resistance because they wouldnt need to all learn a few different languages (can you imagine how frustrating it could have been for cortez, asshole as he is, to need two different translators just to speak to moctezuma?). i suppose its also conceivable that early on, while Old Nahuatl is still spoken, Aguilar would use his printing press to make copies in a latinized language and then have teams of aztec and mayan scribes to translate it into nahuatl script, or maybe would even learn nahuatl himself and essentially make a language key for each of the latin letters or letter groups and line them up next to nahuatl script and then pass them out to try to help everyone, native and european alike, to learn both languages at least decently well. it IS possible to learn a language like that; i was able to self-teach a runic-like fake language that i sometimes use when i dont want anyone else to see what im writing (granted, theres just one individual character for each english letter in my fake-script, but the concept is still the same)
 
Nahuatl regardless is going to be a language of administration, the problem is keeping some form of resistance among the natives if the Roman Catholic priests are going to transform the language and have it written using Latin script. You would need to teach the natives how to use Latin script but you seem to have that down.
 
i think we've pretty-well establish the earlier history of the resistance. now what do you all think would be some good operations for the mayaztecs to undergo? where do you think cortez should be killed? i think ill add great detail to the resistance with cuauhtemoc and guerrero, add in some operation sometime in the period of the later 17th century, then another in the 18th century, and about then would be the prime time to work on their help from the americans
 
You have to make sure that the Guerrero/Cuauhtemoc descendants and heirs to the Empire are rich engaging characters with period appropriate names, first of all.

Maybe cover the Chichimeca war next as it will open the doors to the American Great Plains?

From there you have a lot of options. If the Mayaztec Imperial Resistance has its own secret society in Mexico and there are cells of quiet subversion to help implement the violent resistance up north then I can see a bloody Yucatan that eventually joins the United States as a protectorate early on.

That is if Mexico doesn't win it's Independence. You said that right? The Yucatan and everything from Texas to California becomes the Spanish equivalent of the Thirteen Colonies and the Americans side with the Resistance as well as the Mexican revolutionaries that desire freedom from Spain.

Where does French intervention come into all this?
 
Maybe cover the Chichimeca war next as it will open the doors to the American Great Plains?
while i was waiting, i wrote up a bit about that, just that they were attacked and whatnot by guzman (as in history) while the mayaztecs are recovering from a defeat. they join up with the chichimeca and incite a rebellion against the spanish a few years earlier than in OTL, but i havent gotten any further than that so far

From there you have a lot of options. If the Mayaztec Imperial Resistance has its own secret society in Mexico and there are cells of quiet subversion to help implement the violent resistance up north then I can see a bloody Yucatan that eventually joins the United States as a protectorate early on.

That is if Mexico doesn't win it's Independence. You said that right? The Yucatan and everything from Texas to California becomes the Spanish equivalent of the Thirteen Colonies and the Americans side with the Resistance as well as the Mexican revolutionaries that desire freedom from Spain.

Where does French intervention come into all this?
no, mexico isnt given independence as in actual history until much later (dated to the OTL mexican-american war, where they end up hold spanish nobility hostage to force their independence), in which america gets the territory that they did in OTL plus baja california, sonora, and chihuahua. ive attached a map that shows the extent of the aztec empire by the present-day and the names of their provinces. the outline is choppy because it was originally much smaller

anyway, while some parts of the aztec empire would assuredly have american troops in them for a while longer, none of that region become american states, but the empire as a whole is planned to become a close ally of the united states

french intervention is a possibility, but my original vision was to have them be helped by the british (any of spain's enemies in this timeline are applicable, though). the help here is basically that the mayaztecs attack spanish mining operations and steal precious metals from them, which they then use to trade with spain's enemies for modern guns, horses, and maybe for the services of foreign strategists. until the 1840s, though, the americans dont really pay them any mind (as far as theyre concerned until then, what goes on in new spain is none of their business)

EDIT: btw, what do you all think would be a good flag for the aztecs to use? at the moment, im swinging towards just giving them the real-world flag of mexico (because it has aztec-inspired imagery on it: the eagle attacking a snake on a cactus)

Aztlan.png
 
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ill devote my attention to post-guerrero historical figures another time. for now, id like to try to figure out how and where cortez should die. i plan for him to be killed in battle by the resistance rather than sacrificed (maybe there could be a legend that cuauhtemoc himself kills cortez and says that he'd give the gods indigestion if he was sacrificed), and some other battles should come up as well,maybe one where guerrero dies in battle trying to hold a mayaztec fort in the modern guerrero province and its named after him later. other things i want to determine are what some of the other battles could be between cortez' death and independence

after this, all that would be left for the aztecs pre-1900 would be the first two spanish-american wars
 
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