Early Modern Aztec Empire

i think i may have overwhelmed whoever may have wanted to help with my last thread, so ill just go with one country at a time. so, right now, ill just be asking what i can do about the alternative history concerning the aztecs

keep in mind that im still new to this forum, so correct me if i step out of line on anything here

okay, the point of divergence is in 1521 right after the spanish defeat the aztecs and raze tenochtitlan. however, instead of being ultimately destroyed (as in not as many fatalities), they are merely subdued by the spanish and the european colonization of mexico goes ahead as normal. the aztecs stage a resistance movement and acquire horses and gunpowder weapons of their own. they manage fight that aztecs for a over three hundred years, during which they disrupt many spanish mining operations and steal precious metals from them, trading them to spain's enemies in exchange for modern weapons. consequently, the spanish dont grant indepdence to the mexican colonists, which also earns some sympathy for the aztecs among thee white mexicans after the american revolution and they start to grow in power.

then, in about 1846, the americans (having won previous wars and expanded far northward even into the arctic circle*) attempt to annex parts of spanish-america, notably texas, and the spaniards dont like this one bit, and the First Spanish-American War (analogous to the OTL Mexican-American War) begins. when the americans march into the mexican proper, they are approached by the aztec/mexican resistance and are joined by them on the condition that mexico be given back to the aztecs upon victory. the war pretty much goes as it did in actual history and ends in a joint american/aztec victory. spanish nobles in mexico are held ransom and are only returned to spain after the king of spain grants the aztecs the territory that they want and recognizes their independence. after this, the americans and the aztecs become close allies and trade partners and take on similar isolationist policies (except to each other)

theres alot of other history that concerns them in the post-1900 period, but the last major event in the pre-1900 period concerning teh aztecs, albeit to a lesser extent than it really seems, is their involvement in the Second Spanish-American War (analogous to the OTL Spanish-American War) where they convince the americans to join them in "liberating Mesoamerica from Spanish rule", which actually mostly succeeds and central america goes over to aztec rule


ive got their basic history down, but now i mainly just want to fill in the gaps between these and, if at all possibly, mock up some historical figures. any help, anyone?

LATE EDIT: :p silly me, i forgot to add in teh * details on teh americans! elsewhere while the aztecs are still staging their resistance, other parts of history are still going on. the changes to OTL elsewhere that affect the aztecs the most are with the americans, who still achieve independence and win the wars that come their way, the most important change being that infantry fighting breaks out in 1812 against the british and, subsequently, large portions of canada become american territory, and a small part of northwestern mexico becomes american as a result of the war with spain (baja california, sonora, and chihuahua). these are mainly for aesthetics and so i can be more justified in calling them the United States of North America
 
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i think i may have overwhelmed whoever may have wanted to help with my last thread, so ill just go with one country at a time. so, right now, ill just be asking what i can do about the alternative history concerning the aztecs

keep in mind that im still new to this forum, so correct me if i step out of line on anything here

okay, the point of divergence is in 1521 right after the spanish defeat the aztecs and raze tenochtitlan. however, instead of being ultimately destroyed (as in not as many fatalities), they are merely subdued by the spanish and the european colonization of mexico goes ahead as normal. the aztecs stage a resistance movement and acquire horses and gunpowder weapons of their own. they manage fight that aztecs for a over three hundred years, during which they disrupt many spanish mining operations and steal precious metals from them, trading them to spain's enemies in exchange for modern weapons. consequently, the spanish dont grant indepdence to the mexican colonists, which also earns some sympathy for the aztecs among thee white mexicans after the american revolution and they start to grow in power.

then, in about 1846, the americans (having won previous wars and expanded far northward even into the arctic circle*) attempt to annex parts of spanish-america, notably texas, and the spaniards dont like this one bit, and the First Spanish-American War (analogous to the OTL Mexican-American War) begins. when the americans march into the mexican proper, they are approached by the aztec/mexican resistance and are joined by them on the condition that mexico be given back to the aztecs upon victory. the war pretty much goes as it did in actual history and ends in a joint american/aztec victory. spanish nobles in mexico are held ransom and are only returned to spain after the king of spain grants the aztecs the territory that they want and recognizes their independence. after this, the americans and the aztecs become close allies and trade partners and take on similar isolationist policies (except to each other)

theres alot of other history that concerns them in the post-1900 period, but the last major event in the pre-1900 period concerning teh aztecs, albeit to a lesser extent than it really seems, is their involvement in the Second Spanish-American War (analogous to the OTL Spanish-American War) where they convince the americans to join them in "liberating Mesoamerica from Spanish rule", which actually mostly succeeds and central america goes over to aztec rule


ive got their basic history down, but now i mainly just want to fill in the gaps between these and, if at all possibly, mock up some historical figures. any help, anyone?


There are so many things wrong with this. Don't you know the butterfly effect?
 
yes, im aware of it. this is a small part of a rather extensive alternative history im working on. it would also help if anything that needs correction or more plausibility was pointed out rather than just saying the whole thing is wrong
 
yes, im aware of it. this is a small part of a rather extensive alternative history im working on. it would also help if anything that needs correction or more plausibility was pointed out rather than just saying the whole thing is wrong

It's just that with a POD in 1521, it's unlikely that the US would ever exist.
 
You really need a PoD before 1521 to make any post-conquest "Aztec" resistance plausible. OTL, the "Aztecs" (more propely "Mexica") were only one of many local Mexican city states - one that had managed to subject some - but not all - of central mexico under a lose tribute empire. The "Aztecs" were defeated as much by other Mexican native armies assisting Cortez as by the Spanish themselves. By themselves, the defeated "Aztecs" could not have mounted a successful post-conquest resistance as they were hated by many of the other INdian groups, plus, you need to account for how disease impacted the ability of native societies to resist.

Two possible scenarios exist: (1) have the Aztecs create a more unitary empire prior to the conquest - one that includes other local peoples with more definite loyalty to the capital and leadership at Tenochtitlan, or (2) have a more generalized native Mexican resistance movement develop - perhaps in exile in northern Mexico around a charismatic leader and seeking to expand naive rights and return to traditional Mexican religious and cultural values. Perhaps this group can consolidate power in the greater Southwest (Northern Mexico and the US Southwest) and present a stronger resistance to Spanish expansion into the Pueblo areas. This area remains in the Spanish Empire, but is not heavily colonized or missionized. I'd go ahead and have Mexico acheive independence from Spain in 1821, but as two different independent states, not one: Hispanic Mexico (analagous to Mexico OTL) and "Aztlan" a region dominated by Central Mexican native exiles in league with local Indians, escaped slaves, and "rogue" whites.
 
and...how, exactly, would the presence of more aztecs affect the colonization of the eastern coast of north america?
 
It's just that with a POD in 1521, it's unlikely that the US would ever exist.

Disagree. This PoD still has Spain conquering Mexico, and unless you just want to have butterflies flitting about for no real purpose, this need not alter the trajectory of English settlement in north america - leading ultimately to an independent United States.
 
exactly. the presence of more aztecs just makes it so that mexico doesnt become independent as early as it did

EDIT: i think i missed a post before, but i cant reply right now. brb

EDIT 2: okay, i can reply properly now. this is in response to posts prior to this one, in case any more posts come up while im typing this:

okay, i could push the POD back a few years, but the major result would ultimately be the same. the reason i keep referring to them as aztecs is because thats ultimately what i prefer (has a much nicer ring to it than "Mexica", and its my project, after all). regardless of who actually did the most killing OTL, the aztecs just survive and blame it on the spanish (since they were the ones who incited it all, at least from the aztec pov here).

general resistance seems best, but the aztecs would still have the most influence among them. not too sure about two seperate states; i was instead planning something kinda similar to the Congaree Socialist Republic from TL-191, where they have a government but no definitive borders, often traveling between towns and wilderness, sometimes retaking former native towns for a short time. with guns in hand and their knowledge of the land, the aztecs and other natives would still have a marked advantage against the spanish
 
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Well, the Aztecs need to be more unified, and they need to have a better leader. Actually, they need a worse leader. One that considers the Spaniards hostile invaders even though their beliefs say that Cortez is Quetzecoatl. The Aztecs could certainly have won the initial fight, and perhaps even pushed the Spanish back into the sea, had they been more, or completely, united and had they immediately attacked the Spaniards. The real problem however, is when the disease kicks in and Europe learns of them. With sacrifices and the likes, they will be considered heathen barbarians, and they will most cetainly be wiped out. And it is very unlikely that all the Spaniards are killed and thus no one gets back to Spain, or the orld world in general.
 
suspicious leader? didnt cuahtemoc fill that role? or was that something that they made up for Age of Empires 2?

iirc, didnt the aztecs eventually stop sacrificing people and instead move on to pigs and other livestock? i was kinda planning to make them lessen their beliefs there because they couldnt risk losing anyone else. what do you think is the plausibility of that?
 
Disagree. This PoD still has Spain conquering Mexico, and unless you just want to have butterflies flitting about for no real purpose, this need not alter the trajectory of English settlement in north america - leading ultimately to an independent United States.

And presumably he's going to have it end up the same way as OTL? It doesn't work like that.
 
theres still alot of other stuff going on in the entire world of this timeline, but im only discussing the pre-1900 aztecs here, not what happens to their neighbors to the north or even to the east (spanish and british caribbean) or south (spanish south america and portugeuse brazil)
 
It's not being a snob. I am simply critiquing what he has so far.

You speak of the butterfly effect as if it were the law of gravity. As pointed out by the InfiniteApe, the butterfly effect is merely a literary and philosophical concept which can be used and interpreted in a piece of fiction however one wishes. I have no problem with how oshron has used it. Nothing has been proposed in this TL that would necessarily preclude the eventual establishement of a USA in north america virtually identical to the one in OTL 1800. US Contact with (conquest of) a "more aztec" Mexico would alter US history, but that comes later, and will presumably be part of this TL
 
exactly. the presence of more aztecs just makes it so that mexico doesnt become independent as early as it did

EDIT: i think i missed a post before, but i cant reply right now. brb

EDIT 2: okay, i can reply properly now. this is in response to posts prior to this one, in case any more posts come up while im typing this:

okay, i could push the POD back a few years, but the major result would ultimately be the same. the reason i keep referring to them as aztecs is because thats ultimately what i prefer (has a much nicer ring to it than "Mexica", and its my project, after all). regardless of who actually did the most killing OTL, the aztecs just survive and blame it on the spanish (since they were the ones who incited it all, at least from the aztec pov here).

general resistance seems best, but the aztecs would still have the most influence among them. not too sure about two seperate states; i was instead planning something kinda similar to the Congaree Socialist Republic from TL-191, where they have a government but no definitive borders, often traveling between towns and wilderness, sometimes retaking former native towns for a short time. with guns in hand and their knowledge of the land, the aztecs and other natives would still have a marked advantage against the spanish

I really suggest you read some current literature on the "Aztec Empire" and the late post-classic Mexican history. You need to create a plausible reason why this post-conquest mexican resistance would adopt the "Aztec" name. Not that you can't do it, but a good AH needs a better reason than the author's personal preference to be plausible.
 
well i chose it again just because i like the name more than "mexica", but i was also thinking of reasons as to why and it could possibly be that the aztecs and other natives choose to adopt that name sometime during the ~300 year period between their defeat and the reinstatement of their empire in a similar way to how, while modern amerindians prefer to be referred to by their tribal names, they are generally lumped together as a major ethnic group as "Native American" or "American Indian". in this ATL, the "Aztecs" would by the modern day not be entirely aztec (though their official language is still Nahuatl with some spanish-derived dialects and populations in regions that had more spanish influence than them), they would be more of a hodgepodge of different native populations from the region, so there would be aztec and puebla and maybe even some apache in there; i dont know the names of all of them

the name isnt one of my major focuses right now, though
 
You'll need a POD to make sure that the Spanish colonial administrators do not remove the Nahuatl language as the language of administration in Mexico. Had it been allowed to continue co-existing with Spanish, there would be a larger percentage of people who would have reason to speak it and it would continue to spread.
 
i had thought that it would be the language that the resistance would use and becomes the official language once their empire is reinstated
 
i had thought that it would be the language that the resistance would use and becomes the official language once their empire is reinstated

The Spanish actually kept the language and along with Spanish, it was the language of administration. Nahuatl spread more under Spanish colonial rule than it ever did during the time of the Aztecs because of the thousands of Nahuatl-speaking auxiliaries they used against the northern Indians and had them used as settlers as well. It was during then that the Spanish priests also began writing the language in Latin script so it could do a lot of good if more attention is devoted to it early on. It's likely that Nahuatl undergoes heavy Romance influence because of Spain.
 
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