Early Leaded Gasoline Ban

I think it should be assumed that dozens of other scientists were working on this.

As best I can tell, Midgley and his team (funded by his boss Charles Kettering as a partnership between General Motors and Frigidaire) were the only ones researching flourocarbons in the late 1920s -- R12 had already been synthesized in the 1890s by a German chemist, but never investigated as a refrigerant. If Midgley is locked up in a mental facility in 1929, Kettering is dead (or bankrupt from the Ethyl Corp. failure), and chemistry department research budgets are about to get zeroed by the Great Depression, it might be another 10 years before anyone discovers them.

And it was sheer luck Plunkett discovered PTFE in 1938 (10 years after Freon became available). Chemists did not expect flourinated polymers like that could exist, and nobody was trying to make them.

So in TTL I think it's plausible nobody discovers them until the Manhattan Project (assuming it still occurs) pours gobs of money and manpower into finding a material that can withstand UF6 vapor. The project may be delayed until they discover it.

Since PTFE is vital to enrichment of weapons-grade uranium, it will definitely be classified. Freons too, since they are a precursor. No doubt the Soviets will discover how to make the materials too, but in TTL nonstick pans and Freon refrigerators probably won't be available to Joe Consumer until the Cold War eases in the 1970s.
 
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Tovarich

Banned
I wonder what the psychological effects on several generations of urban dwellers not having the perpetually depressing sight of an environment literally coated in very visible filth 100% of the time?

Honestly, anyone born after around 1980 should just have a look at some old photos.
The cities (and even smaller towns) didn't look that horrible because no-one could be bothered cleaning, it's just that there was literally no point; a 'running to stand still' situation.
 

kernals12

Banned
I wonder what the psychological effects on several generations of urban dwellers not having the perpetually depressing sight of an environment literally coated in very visible filth 100% of the time?

Honestly, anyone born after around 1980 should just have a look at some old photos.
The cities (and even smaller towns) didn't look that horrible because no-one could be bothered cleaning, it's just that there was literally no point; a 'running to stand still' situation.
Isn't that mostly soot?
 

Tovarich

Banned
Isn't that mostly soot?

Not if you're going by memory of the '70s & '80s, like I am (born '68).

The Clean Air Act (UK) dealing with industrial (and household) smoke had been passed decades before, after the Great London Smog killed a few thousand Londoners over the course of a weekend, which also made the other industrialised nations take note & pass measures too.
 
Since PTFE is vital to enrichment of weapons-grade uranium, it will definitely be classified. Freons too, since they are a precursor. No doubt the Soviets will discover how to make the materials too, but in TTL nonstick pans and Freon refrigerators probably won't be available to Joe Consumer until the Cold War eases in the 1970s.
If Europe finds chemical research (atomic) at the bottom of the periodic chart to be restricted, they might spend more effort at the top. CFC's, bingo. Research unrelated to atomic science improves life.
 

kernals12

Banned
Not if you're going by memory of the '70s & '80s, like I am (born '68).

The Clean Air Act (UK) dealing with industrial (and household) smoke had been passed decades before, after the Great London Smog killed a few thousand Londoners over the course of a weekend, which also made the other industrialised nations take note & pass measures too.
What about sulfur?
 

Tovarich

Banned
What about sulfur?

Might need more of an Industrial Chemist than me here, but isn't sulphur yellow?

This stuff was black, you could literally wipe it off surfaces with your finger, because the coating was constantly being reapplied.
 

kernals12

Banned
Might need more of an Industrial Chemist than me here, but isn't sulphur yellow?

This stuff was black, you could literally wipe it off surfaces with your finger, because the coating was constantly being reapplied.
I maintain then it was Soot. The clean air act may have reduced it but it couldn't have eliminated it.
 

Tovarich

Banned
I maintain then it was Soot. The clean air act may have reduced it but it couldn't have eliminated it.

In which case it'd still be there today.

It was lead from petrol fumes, that's the factor which was removed almost 'overnight' and the surfaces have been clean(ish) since, even in the conurbations.
 

kernals12

Banned
In which case it'd still be there today.

It was lead from petrol fumes, that's the factor which was removed almost 'overnight' and the surfaces have been clean(ish) since, even in the conurbations.
Engines produce a lot less unburned hydrocarbons these days.
 

Tovarich

Banned
Engines produce a lot less unburned hydrocarbons these days.

Steady progression of engineering efficiency has had a gradual effect over decades, that's true.

But as I've already stated, the environmental improvement (especially visible to the naked eye) resulting from an imposed ban on lead was almost immediate.
 

kernals12

Banned
Steady progression of engineering efficiency has had a gradual effect over decades, that's true.

But as I've already stated, the environmental improvement (especially visible to the naked eye) resulting from an imposed ban on lead was almost immediate.
before-and-after.jpg

Are you talking about this type of coating? Because this is soot
 
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before-and-after.jpg

Are you talking about this type of coating? Because this is soot

Yes. Coal soot soled everything. The conversion from coal to petroleum starting in the 19th Century contributed to that clean up, then there was the impetus to efficiency, making a increasing portion of the fuel converted rather than waste hydrocarbons. The Clean air movement simply accelerated what was already occurring.
Steady progression of engineering efficiency has had a gradual effect over decades, that's true.

But as I've already stated, the environmental improvement (especially visible to the naked eye) resulting from an imposed ban on lead was almost immediate.

As far as halting new contamination. As I wrote earlier, when doing repair and remodeling on buildings we still regularly encounter lead contamination. I'm in the process of discussing exactly that with a customer this month.
 
How much lead based paints were used on ships and for how long?

Red and White Lead Primer was common on marine vessels till not long ago. White Lead goes back to sailing ships before the switch to copper sheathed bottoms, back to Roman times
 

Driftless

Donor
Red and White Lead Primer was common on marine vessels till not long ago. White Lead goes back to sailing ships before the switch to copper sheathed bottoms, back to Roman times
So, harbor basins and the areas by dry docks may have higher concentrations of lead compounds in the sediment? (figuring from both scraping and painting)
 
Ethyl Alcohol was a known anti-knock additive to gasoline well before TEL became the 'answer' the latter largely pushed by the oil companies and producers.

Indeed, alcohol was popular as a fuel before gasoline and many early IC engines ran on alcohol fuels, without the later harmful emissions of gasoline with (or without) TEL.

However, when you have big business pushing their interests up against a fuel that could be 'brewed' at home, guess which won!

The history of TEL use in spite of known detrimental effects is as sordid a tale as that behind the promotion in use of asbestos.
 

kernals12

Banned
Ethyl Alcohol was a known anti-knock additive to gasoline well before TEL became the 'answer' the latter largely pushed by the oil companies and producers.

Indeed, alcohol was popular as a fuel before gasoline and many early IC engines ran on alcohol fuels, without the later harmful emissions of gasoline with (or without) TEL.

However, when you have big business pushing their interests up against a fuel that could be 'brewed' at home, guess which won!

The history of TEL use in spite of known detrimental effects is as sordid a tale as that behind the promotion in use of asbestos.
I don't like conspiracy theories. Alcohol fuel comes with lots of problems. It's less dense than gasoline and it corrodes engine components. There's no way for a shadowy cabal of businesses to prevent the emergence of a superior technology that puts them out of business. The ice industry didn't stop refrigerators. The coal industry didn't stop petroleum or natural gas. And the oil industry is not stopping lithium batteries.
 
Sadly not a conspiracy theory, nor intended to be one. Early experiments in improving performance of IC engines are on record, particularly those by the US military, with alcohol-based fuels showing greater promise.

However, producing oil-based fuels on an industrial scale at that time lead to a cheaper product which became the driver in the market over all alternatives regardless of any other concern.

In my chosen field of Health & Safety, many things were historically commonplace that today would not be believed.
 
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Yes, as Dr Barry Commoner acerbically noted in a speech I attended in 1986 or so, that lead in gasoline poisoned people but this caused no regulatory action, but when it was desired to limit nitrogen compound emissions via catalytic converters, and lead poisoned those, then it was possible to act to ban the stuff at last.
I think this is more a case of parallelism than maliciousness. Although the toxicity of lead was known in the early 20th century, there seems to be a common trend in countries around the world that this sort of thing and especially relatively subtle environmental effects like those that were really the crux of the lead problem are ignored until the country hits some kind of critical wealth level; essentially, below a certain per-captia GDP, people are willing to overlook the use of toxic chemicals and environmental damage and destruction in favor of material benefits like less knock in their engines, but once they get sufficiently wealthy those are no longer acceptable and they begin working on cleaning things up. In the United States in particular, this level was reached around the late 1960s or early 1970s. Naturally this led to catalytic convertors, but even in their absence I think that the general rise in environmental consciousness and interest in environmental protection stemming from being a sufficiently wealthy country would have led to a ban on leaded gasoline sooner or later, just the same way it led to a ban on leaded paint.
 
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