Early helicopters in WW2

Some of you might know that there existed rudimentary helicopter designs, mainly in Germany, during and prior to WW2. What if they had been put into mass-production as combat vehicles? What effect would they have, if any?
 
To be honest, not much I don't think.

They could get some use to transport troops and supplies and VIPs sure, but it's not like you're going to see SS Air Calvary to any great effect. Quite simply too many men for units to be fighting alone at the battalion and regimental level. As far as fire support, the Vietnamese figured out you could bring a helicopter down with rifle fire... I'm sure the British and Russians could too.

Not to mention that's even more gasoline for Germany's economy to guzzle.

Oddly I could see Otto Skorzeny flying a helicopter into Russia, landing on the Kremlin and kidnapping Stalin. :p
 
Due to the very experimental nature of helicopters at that time, and their limited power and range, I could see them as little more than recon/sub-hunting as was their intended purpose, or they could've been like sky cranes only way earlier.
 
Some of you might know that there existed rudimentary helicopter designs, mainly in Germany, during and prior to WW2. What if they had been put into mass-production as combat vehicles? What effect would they have, if any?

Jet engines were just becoming standard throughout the air forces of the world. If helicopters were made, then they would've been like some of the larger and powerful German tanks. Expensive, ineffective, and not worth their time.
 

Nietzsche

Banned
Jet engines were just becoming standard throughout the air forces of the world. If helicopters were made, then they would've been like some of the larger and powerful German tanks. Expensive, ineffective, and not worth their time.

Actually even less so. Even if the King Tiger couldn't run, it was an excellent anti-tank bunker. A helicopter that can't fly is about as useful as a...well, a helicopter that can't fly.
 
Actually even less so. Even if the King Tiger couldn't run, it was an excellent anti-tank bunker. A helicopter that can't fly is about as useful as a...well, a helicopter that can't fly.

But I need to know what if Nazis had developed helicopters in say, 1943? Would that have changed the war in any significant way?
 
I can see it now: the Luftwaffe generals would ask for the mass production of nimble, two-man Apache-like close support copters, but Hitler would overrule them all, and command the Reich hubschrauberwerk to roll out some kind of gigantic, multi-rotored, heavily armored thing that could barely get off the ground. But if they could have produced a workable transport helicopter like our Chinook or Sea Stallion, they could have gotten supplies to units in remote places, and evacuated more men from doomed garrisons like Stalingrad.
 
Elementry auto Gyros were purchased and toyed with prewar and as mentioned Helicopters were pushed by the Navy to provide scouts and ASW for smaller escorts. Those could be of some value. However the most promising designs were made by Flettner who was some kind of artist scientist that insisted on hand crafting every helicopter.As such they were costly to produce and at most only 24 could be built per year.....hardly worth the effort!


But it need not be expensive as some suggest. The Fa-61 was 'type certified' in 1936 and was simply a Fw-44 trainer aircraft with the wings removed and a pair of rotors installed in their place. It was demonstrated to be able to fly in confined spaced and take off and land vertically with good visiblity over the side. It was also demonstred to carry 250kg load, which could either be a second spotter or ordnance. It would have been cheap and easy to mass produce. Inaddition to warship role, they could be assigned to division , Korps and Army forward observes for heavy Artillery units and as scouts to allow more effective recon, screening and economy of force missions. Those can become effective force multipliers.

If nothing else the earlier introduction of hundreds of Fa-61 scouts, could have been enought kick Flettner into accepting licence mass production contracts , plus earlier introduction of the Fa 223 troop carrying helicopter.
 

Deleted member 1487

It would be excellent for pilot rescue ops in the ocean. I doubt they'd be able to make anything in the 40's that would be able to function as a transport. Maybe a small, slow gunship that would not be very useful, but that is probably it.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focke_Achgelis_Fa_223

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikorsky_R-4

Actually the Fa 226 Hornisse had started production in 1939 as a 6 passenger transport for Lufthansa. However few were produced but it did lead to the contract to develop what becomes the Fa 223 Drache (Air Ministry redesignated it so the number is earlier despite being developed later) However a number of factors delayed the Drache's development.

Still had the German's used both the Fl 265 as a scout/recon, along with the Fa 226 as a light/commando transport in 1940/1941 we could have seen earlier and more successful development of the later Fa 223 and the Fl 282 designs.

This in turn could see a push by the Allies to put the Sikorsky R-4 into production earlier and wider use. Instead of the Rangers at Point Du Hoc climbing up the cliffs, would repel down from R-4s.

Not sure just how big the effects would be on diverting the non-fuel resurces to this?
 
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MacCaulay

Banned
But I need to know what if Nazis had developed helicopters in say, 1943? Would that have changed the war in any significant way?

I wouldn't think so. The only thing it might have helped with was if perhaps the British, Americans, or Australians had developed one that could carry 2 or 3 people in 1942 or '43.

Then it could be used in a Combat Search and Rescue role in the Pacific, picking up downed pilots in the jungle or at sea. That would be very useful. Not a war changer, but it'd be very useful to have a CSAR bird on the deck of a carrier at Iwo Jima or Okinawa, or with the Australians on the Kokoda Track.
 
Well, according to Wikipedia and their sources, the Germans used the fl 282 in the Mediterranean and the Fa 223 in Europe, while the R-4 was used in Burma and Alaska, among other places.
 
The Focker-Agelis factories were bombed in 43; if they had not been they were just ramping up to mass-production, so you could certainly see Germany with a much greater deployment of helicopters even than OTL. Maybe Hannah Reitsch would have flown one into or out of Berlin in 45 ?

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
I posited a what-if about autogiros/gyroplanes being available for widespread use in WWII. The more I learnt about early true helicopters, the less I thought the 'copters of the '40s could have had a major effect on tactics in that era.

Sure, the R&D had been done in the '30s, limited production lines were set up during the war--but the best that could have happened was a Korean War level of deployment.

It's the Suez in '56 when helicopters were first used for conventional war making.

However, for my thread I came to the conclusion that autogiros could have been manufactured & deployed in large numbers as troop carriers and weapons platforms in WWII, because the R&D was much more advanced than it was for helicopters, and the early pre-turbine helicopter models were not as inherently safe as gyroplanes militarised pre-war would have been. But, here's the kicker, everyone back then knew that the future of rotorcraft lay with machines that could hover. Only true helicopters (or even more complicated gyroplane-helicopter hybrids) could achieve that, regardless of the fact that they had a bad tendency to crash (just look at the wiki article of the FA 223 linked by wemayberry).
 

Bearcat

Banned
Helos

just don't have the power to do vertical envelopment until the late 50s or so. Once you get to the H-34 Choctaw (the Marine version was the HUS Seahorse) then you have enough lift and speed for using them on a battlefield. Until then you can get limited value by CSAR and using them to patrol a CVBGs inner screen for subs. Not too much more. Any scenario with major vertical envelopment in the 40s is either ASB or has a POD before 1920, with atendant earlier development of many other types of aircraft.
 
just don't have the power to do vertical envelopment until the late 50s or so. Once you get to the H-34 Choctaw (the Marine version was the HUS Seahorse) then you have enough lift and speed for using them on a battlefield. Until then you can get limited value by CSAR and using them to patrol a CVBGs inner screen for subs. Not too much more. Any scenario with major vertical envelopment in the 40s is either ASB or has a POD before 1920, with atendant earlier development of many other types of aircraft.

In terms of a WI, any divergant development from history is going to have to depend on conditions. Is there a need , is there a industry, is there a drive to get the technology. With the Germans there clearly was a need in naval matters to redress the appauling lack of naval aviation. So its hardly surprising that Admiral Raeder is handing out contracts to develope Flettners Helicopters into an ASW/Scout platforme for small escorts [down to MBoot size warships], however something along the lines of the Fa 336 might have been more appropriate given the small deck space available. I gather that up to 10 x Fl-282 could fit in each seaplane hanger on warships so that could be a great help for short range discreet communications, ASW and scouting.

Other naval applications was for a super fast Schnell boot replacement, but thats also a V slow Torpedo Bomber, so more Seaplane TB would make more sence.

The army was slow to embrace this technology, but earlier arrival would have generated better chance to explore. The eventualy identified Helicotpers as being ideal for Artillery FO and additions to Mountain troops for transportation in difficult terrain. So both of those could have been developed extensively given enought time.

As far as industry goes, each Ju-52 could have provided the engines and airframe for up to 3 x fa-223 helicopters , while each trainer could provide the engine and airframe for a Fl-282 helicopter. Expanding the production of trainers should not be too difficult a task given enough political support and drive. Political turfwar battles would be the biggest obstical, so as usual a bullit in Goerings brain would be needed and should bring a smile to most:D
 
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