As it says, what if Charles the Bald dies early.
Maybe soon after the Oaths of Strasbourg.
What happens the Frankish Empire?
Maybe soon after the Oaths of Strasbourg.
What happens the Frankish Empire?
Early death of Charles the Bald
- Thread starter The Professor
- Start date
Art
Monthly Donor
hmm...
Frankish Empire? It didn't exist by then in reality. The heirs of Charlemagne had split it up, part becoming Lotharingia, part what would become France, and the last part most of Western Germany. And then his grandchildren split it up further. you mean the same Charles the Bald who paid the Viking's 8,000 pounds of silver as Danegeld. Hmm... maybe Paris doesn't become the capital of France. Half the reason it did was repeated sieges by the Vikings.
Frankish Empire? It didn't exist by then in reality. The heirs of Charlemagne had split it up, part becoming Lotharingia, part what would become France, and the last part most of Western Germany. And then his grandchildren split it up further. you mean the same Charles the Bald who paid the Viking's 8,000 pounds of silver as Danegeld. Hmm... maybe Paris doesn't become the capital of France. Half the reason it did was repeated sieges by the Vikings.
Valdemar II
Banned
My guess are that Ludvigs the German position are weaken and the Empire mostly stay together, while Ludwig keep his position in Bavaria at best as a vassal of Lothar. So we see the Empire stay together for one Emperor more, and likely also under Ludwig II (Lothars son). So what happen afterward depend on the potential heirs, if Ludwig the German has ended up murdered or executed, we likely see a unified Empire under his oldest son. At this point the Empire may have been centralised enough that it stays together.
Another option after the same series of events is one nominal king, but extremely autonomous princes. The French and German kings were not able to govern in a centralized manner centuries after the split, so the requirements from such an early ruler over a larger kingdom are especially strong.
Valdemar II
Banned
That would be as centralised as we could hope for. Likely we see the Feudal structure develop much as in Germany and Italy, I imagine that Germany, Austria, France and Benelux turn out much like OTL Germany (ecclessial states, imperial cities), while Italy will be left alone and likely develop much like OTL. But while the Emperor will have trouble keeping it together likely they will be much better able to deal with Danes, Wends and Magyars. I doubt we see the Normandy, we will likely see it end up the Emperors personal territorium and strongly fortified. Through the Emperor may just deal with the Danes more directly by invading Denmark.
Some interesting ideas.
If this Empire is quite decentralised what would it's relations with it's neighbours be?
Could we see a Danish-English "empire" in response?
If this Empire is quite decentralised what would it's relations with it's neighbours be?
Could we see a Danish-English "empire" in response?
Paris became the capital because it was the seat of power of Hugh Capet. When he was crowned king, it makes sense that he would want to stay there, rather than move to Rheims.
Also, note that after the division it was reunited for a while under Charles the Fat. So the empire, or at least the concept of unity, still existed and would persist (in the abstract) for most of the tenth century.
So basically OTL?
Valdemar II
Banned
The same as OTL, a little more agressive toward the Danes, and more power behind their dealings with the Wends and Magyars.
No we're quite likely to see Denmark in deep trouble. Beside for the English this united empire aren't a threat, but a trading partner and potentialally against Denmark.
Art
Monthly Donor
Maybe...
The so-called "Frankish Empire" lasted, de facto, one generation. And may have existed in name afterward, but nowhere else. Germany, or rather western Germany, had their supporters and went one way, the Franks went another, and Lotharingia/ Burgundy went their way. There was not one chance in 100,000 of the Empire of Charlemagne being revived. Charlemagne only ruled it because he had forces on top of everyone, holding them down, and, in the case of the Old Saxons, commiting genocide in the name of Christ!!!
The so-called "Frankish Empire" lasted, de facto, one generation. And may have existed in name afterward, but nowhere else. Germany, or rather western Germany, had their supporters and went one way, the Franks went another, and Lotharingia/ Burgundy went their way. There was not one chance in 100,000 of the Empire of Charlemagne being revived. Charlemagne only ruled it because he had forces on top of everyone, holding them down, and, in the case of the Old Saxons, commiting genocide in the name of Christ!!!