Earliest Possible Space Age?

You can't say it was advanced as the Roman Empire, it was a lot more advanced than Ancient Greece, Ancient Greece was small statelets, which was inferior in architecture, farming, logistic, adminstration, metallurgy, animal breeding and almost every single area, even compared to backwaters like the Frankish Empire or Lombardy.

Hmm. I think you don't understand what I'm saying, and I don't know how to really explain it well. :-/

Ancient Greece did not have the same technology, no, but it had a climate more suitable for learning. They had universities (sorta), philosophy was booming, literature, math. The intellectual climate in ancient Greece was much more suitable for ultimate technological advancement than the Dark Ages. I will grant that Greece was more into theory and pure science than practical applications, so Rome is a better example, but my point remains. If you consider climates like the ancient Greece, ancient Rome, the Renaissance, or modern Silicon Valley, the Dark Ages just didn't have the same sort of potential for growth.
 
OK, at bare minimum, to get people in space you need to have (1) rockets, or some other technology capable of reaching high altitudes and high speeds - ca. 17,000 mph if you hope to enter orbit, (2) a means of protecting people from the affects high high g acceleration, (3) a means of pressurizing suits or vehicles, and perhaps most importantly, (4) a cultural reason for wanting to do this in the first place.

I am among those who believe the effects of the "dark ages" in europe are being overestimated. Realistically, unless you do have a very early PoD, you are probably talking about an early-20th century space age at the earliest. If you want to try for an earlier one, the place to start is China, not Rome.
 
In my timeline I call "Here Come the Romans" (I know it's a horrible title but it was the only one that would stick) the Byzantine Empire survives, Christianity does not split into catholic and orthodox branches, the Byzantine Empire begins a personal union with the Frankish Empire that will last for a long time, feudalism doesn't take hold, and technology advances at a much faster pace then in the "dark ages", technology is about five hundred years ahead of OTL.

Now if I could just get my lazy ass into gear and actually write some stuff.
 
Need speculation for this. Whats the earliest possible time for humanity to get up into space?
I'll probably be called a n00b for this, but hopefully we could reach space by 1860?

That depends on your timeframe. Do you want history recognizable up to a certain point, or can you put up with a radically different world? If the latter, anything is possible. The former is tricky, and depends on how much history you want to preserve.

Late 1940s, with Nazi dominance in Europe. The V-2 missile actually made it into space, becoming the first manmade object to leave the atmosphere. Sputnik was IOTL just the first to orbit. If Von Braun has his way, he could convince High Command that reusable rocket planes for long range bombing are worth the effort. Which could result in a moon landing by 1960, assuming willpower.

Big assumption, topping off an unrealistic scenario.

What about China?
If it hadn't turned isolationist, and scrapped it's promising treasure ships that were exploring new markets before Europe did.

Oh, not this nonsense again.

How does Christianity make Rome fall?

Well, you could argue that the widespead adoption of Christianity aggravated the decline of urban populations in the late Empire, which reduced the tax base, which made the Empire more vulnerable to barbarian incursion. Haven't found good enough figures to form a solid opinion on this, though.

POD -3.6 Million BC
Due to a few quirks of evolution, homo sapiens are developed and develop faster, bringing the space age to -2.7 BC. What? :D

Got you beat. Cambrian explosion, two or three billion years early.

Not nececarlly. Rome was a Universal Empire, and Universal Empires tends to stagnate. It was hindered by extremly ineffective economic system based on slave-worked latifundia, and culture that encouraged looking back rather than forward (with it's notions of the mythical golden age in the past).

Which is why Chinese agricultural productivity tripled between 1400 and 1800. Sure looks like stagnation to me!

By the way, most cultures have a mythical golden age, and I think I can recall research showing that that common conception of the Roman economy is suspect. I'll see what I can dig up.
 
I don't see why a "Rome never falls" scenario is being touted as the best option. That's just blatantly untrue. People seem to forget that the Romans' capacity for scientific advancement was nil. Romans, probably as part of their somewhat hedonist ideals, weren't interested in tinkering with technology. Technology went precisely nowhere during the entire length of their existence. What the Romans did was steal the technology of those they conquered. But when they had conquered states, they put a crimp on those states' ability to develop technology amongst themselves, thus essentially stemming the flow of advancement. As the Romans take more land, they are consigning more of the globe to technological stagnation. And after all, let's not forget that war stimulates technological advance. The more that the Roman Empire is guaranteed its position in the world, the more technology is going to dry up. And I'm really not sure who in the Ancient world could replace the Romans and spur on technology. I have to say I really think that a Dark Ages period is needed to create the national units capable of forming a Space Age period.
the romans developed the automatic crossbow. there was (limitted) scientific advance
 
POD: Pythagoras does not get stabbed by the roman soldier. hopefully this enables the butterflies to reduce the impact of the dark ages.
 
I think this picture is appropriate here.

At the risk of being unorthodox, except for road-building and and civil engineering Rome was not very good at technical progress. Even when they were being submerged in barbarian invasions they never managed to invent the stirrup for their cavalry, for heaven's sake. (That might make an interesting POD. Stirrup invented, Roman cavalry becomes equiped like armored midieval knights, repels the Huns....etc.) The Christian West was the ONLY place in the world where the scientific and Industrial revolutions took place
 
At the risk of being accused of Eurocentrism: Rome abandoned Britain in 410 AD. Centralized government and administration disappeared quickly, and local warlords gradually emerged as the power centers. At the same time, Britain became the target of repeated incursions from Picts, Danes, etc.

The British Isles had all the agricultural, mineral and metal resources required to sustain a civilization. The Irish monasteries had copies of all of the foundational documents of what would become western civilization. Ireland also very quickly developed a form of Catholicism and a set of laws that were far more egalitarian than was normally found in that era.

The POD is the rise in the fifth century, post 410, of a leader who unites all of Britain south of Hadrian's Wall, re-establishing centralized government and defending the island from invaders. (Or co-opting them into settling peacefully.) Over the next two centuries, Ireland and Scotland join Britain in some form of federation, voluntary or otherwise. The British Isles develop a civilization independent of the mainland, which is going through Gibbons' decline and fall. You could even butterfly in the earlier development of moveable type if you like, perhaps by some monk who wants to escape the scriptorium.

With that head start, and with a form of Catholicism that lacks the stultifying effects of Galileo's era, it's possible Greater Britain could have been the seedbed for a much earlier industrial revolution and all that followed. Space travel by 1700 then becomes far more likely.
 
Also yes the Catholic Church was the sole custodian of scientific knowledge for a very long time. Without it Europe would be emerging of the dark ages right about now. But had it not been there in the first place there would be no dark ages therefore scientific halt. I know it is a bit of a paradox but its true.

To say that without Christianity there would have been no dark ages is complete hogwash. The Dark Ages arose because of the general collapse of Roman civilization in the West as a result of the chaos which was caused by the fall of the Western Roman Empire. The fall of the Roman Empire was caused by a variety of factors...barbarian invasions, political instability, poor economic policies, to name a few...that had little, if anything, to do with Christianity.

And, in fact, the scientific progress which occurred during Roman times (the achievements of Heron of Alexandria and others like him) was a legacy of the Hellenistic age, and had pretty much died well before Christianity became the State Religion of Rome. Roman civilization died a long, slow, lingering death, and basically from 200-250 BC onward was in pretty much constant decline. Again, Christianity had nothing to do with any of it.

The Christian Church picked up the pieces of a civilization which collapsed due to its own hubris, and saved as much as it could of the best parts of it for the future. They can hardly be blamed because they failed to save everything.
 
How about no decline of the Abbasid and Baghdad Caliphates, and the eventual sacking of Baghdad? That was the Islamic Golden Age, much of today's science came from Islamic Areas. A surviving Al-Andalus in this PoD would also contribute greatly
 
My own two cents.
First: Rome. Roman civilization had the same "problem" common to most of the ancient cultures: considered a waste of time the developing of machinery. In part it's due to the large abundance of slaves (you don't build a machine when buying a slave is cheaper and quicker) and in part it's due to the prejudice towards the mechanical arts common to most of the ancient cultures. Said this, I wouldn't scoff so easily to the roman achievments: when a few aqueducts and bridges build by them are still working after two thousands years, while some build by us modern crumbles to dust after a few decades, we can say that they knew their job pretty well.

Even when they were being submerged in barbarian invasions they never managed to invent the stirrup for their cavalry, for heaven's sake.

You'll be amazed to learn that people used to ride horses for millenia without discovering such an "obvious" invention. According to your logic, the romans should have invented cannons...

Pythagoras does not get stabbed by the roman soldier

Maybe Archimedes...

Second: Too many PODs. Trying to have the roman empire to survive for two thousand years involves a lot of pods... I'd like to invocate Occam and choose a later pod.
What about a different renaissance? The early studies on magnetism and mathematics develop into a systematic study of nature and physics. The catholic church, instead of opposing such studies, encourages them under the explanation that these studies only further demonstrate the Greateness of God (any doctrinal point can be easily dealt with). This pod will lead to people like Galileo, Kepler and others to have freedom of research. Hopefully all this could lead to a manned expedition in the late 19th century.

How about no decline of the Abbasid and Baghdad Caliphates, and the eventual sacking of Baghdad? That was the Islamic Golden Age, much of today's science came from Islamic Areas.

Definitly a possibility, but there's a long way anyway. I would consider Bukhara too, the observatory built there was pretty advanced for the times.
 
That was the Islamic Golden Age, much of today's science came from Islamic Areas.


Ibn La-Ahad,

No it didn't. We've been over that claim hundreds of times before. It's rather over blown.

The various Islamic states did the world a great service by saving what works of Classical era they did. They also added to that body of work and incorporated knowledge from other sources. However, alchemy is not chemistry, astrology is not astronomy, numerology is not mathematics, and all of the other fields Islamic scholars worked in were not science.


Bill
 
Ibn La-Ahad,

No it didn't. We've been over that claim hundreds of times before. It's rather over blown.

The various Islamic states did the world a great service by saving what works of Classical era they did. They also added to that body of work and incorporated knowledge from other sources. However, alchemy is not chemistry, astrology is not astronomy, numerology is not mathematics, and all of the other fields Islamic scholars worked in were not science.


Bill

We do owe at least some debt to them. My own field, computer science, owes some of its roots to Muslim scholars. Al-Khwarizmi (where the word "algorithm" comes from) was both a mathematician and (very) early information theorist.
 
The monsoon patterns don't change around 6000 BC, because the climate has achieved another metastable equilibrium.

As a result, the Sahara does not dry out, and remains a lush, fertile area, with huge rivers and vast areas suited for growing crops. Civilization gets a massive resource boost, and hits space before the OTL birth of Christ.
 
We do owe at least some debt to them. My own field, computer science, owes some of its roots to Muslim scholars. Al-Khwarizmi (where the word "algorithm" comes from) was both a mathematician and (very) early information theorist.


Solomaxwell,

I said the world owes them a great debt, but saying that Islamic scholars engaged in scientific inquiry is overpraising their work by a great margin. Even the Classical thinkers whose works they preserved and added to weren't scientists.


Bill
 
OK, at bare minimum, to get people in space you need to have (2) a means of protecting people from the affects high high g acceleration,

Off topic
Have you ever seen the mighty Saturn V take off?
Manned rockets have always got a smaller acceleration then unmanned, because people don't cope will with high G's.
I think maximum acceleration is reached after stage separation, but I dont think point 2 is absolutely necessary.
 
After building the Pyramids, the Egyptians switch governments to Democracy in 2500BC. Alpha Centauri is reached by 1AD.


:p
 
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