Earliest Possible Female Combat Pilots?

jahenders

Banned
As noted, there were some around WWI. However, to get any significant number serving openly you'd have to wait until WWII.

Then, ultimately, you have two challenges:
1) Demand -- as long as there are enough men to do it, there's little push to have women do it.

2) Limits on combat -- the US, and others, had provisos against women in Combat and most of the roles discussed were considered combat and the men doing them were considered to be 'in combat.'

West:
So, in the West, your best bet would probably be some slight expansion of the ferrying role to include some long (mostly boring) patrol flights. At first, those might be unarmed spotting/reconaisance. If they have some where they see potential targets (U-boats recharging, etc), perhaps there's some lobbying to give them some weapons. However, again, there's a problem that men fulfilling the same role are considered to be 'in combat' so how could they not be? Perhaps there's a nuance based on their starting and ending base.

If that works, perhaps homeland interceptor is a possibility, but that role was often used as training for deploying forward, so I don't think the USAAF would want women (who they wouldn't send forward) doing it.

If things somehow progress to a point where they're really considering women in true combat roles, perhaps you have the Lady Airmen serving alongside the Tuskegee Airmen -- two groups of non-standard pilots.

Russia:
Russia could be a very distinct possibility, but there just weren't many women with the assumed flying, engineering, and/or political background to get into the field.

In World War II women made up a large amount of training and ferry pilots, helping to free up men for combat roles. By the 1950s there was serious consideration of using women in national space programs, as it was thought that their physiology was more suitable. A major consideration for the early space program would simply be the smaller size of women, as they weigh less than men and do not need as much space or supplies.

Given this, could women have been allowed to fly in combat units earlier than they were historically, especially outside of communist countries? Could they have served in defensive roles piloting interceptors?
 
How about having the SOE expand its operations to include its own air-wing.

It had women in what were arguably combat roles during WWII.
If it had dedicated squadrons flown by integral pilots, why not?

Especially if it had on call CAS missions for its activities.
 
How about having the SOE expand its operations to include its own air-wing.

It had women in what were arguably combat roles during WWII.
If it had dedicated squadrons flown by integral pilots, why not?

Especially if it had on call CAS missions for its activities.

I like your thinking! What you are suggesting is basically what the USAF Air Commando did in Vietnam: support special forces. You could even expand this idea to what the 160th SOAR does now. Sorry to get off point but that could be a separate thread.
I would say that if a woman pilot got shot down and the Germans found the wreckage would they be more likely to be looking for a female rather than a military age male?
 
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TFSmith121

Banned
Longer WW I, possibly, as the departure point

In World War II women made up a large amount of training and ferry pilots, helping to free up men for combat roles. By the 1950s there was serious consideration of using women in national space programs, as it was thought that their physiology was more suitable. A major consideration for the early space program would simply be the smaller size of women, as they weigh less than men and do not need as much space or supplies.

Given this, could women have been allowed to fly in combat units earlier than they were historically, especially outside of communist countries? Could they have served in defensive roles piloting interceptors?

In the US, a longer WW I, possibly, as the point of departure, with combat roles - air defense at home, for example - being a possibility in 1942...

In the US, there were licensed women pilots as early as 1911, and women had been flying since 1909, when Katherine Wright flew with her brothers for demonstration flights. Two more women had soloed in the US in 1910, while Harriett Quimby was the first American woman to earn a pilot's license in 1911. She was the second woman in the world to do so, but was killed in an aircraft accident in 1912. Matilde Moissant was the second American woman to earn a pilot's license, and also set several altitude records. Tiny Broadwick was the first woman to parachute from an airplane, and in 1915, she became the first person to demonstrate parachutes to the US Army.

Katherine Stinson was the first woman to fly the mail and the first woman in the world to own a flying school. In 1913 Katherine and her mother created Stinson Aviation Company to rent and sell airplanes. In 1917, Katherine was the first woman to fly in Japan or China. Her younger sister, Marjorie Stinson, was employed by her sister's flying school as their chief instructor.

800px-Miss_Katherine_Stinson_and_her_Curtiss_aeroplane_3c06324u.jpg


The Stinsons were followed by Ruth Law, who in 1916 broke the world's non-stop cross-country record, for men or women, by flying 590 miles from Chicago, Illinois, to Hornell, New York.

The point being that by 1917, women pilots, although rare, were accepted in the US, and not simply as novelties - and women were being recruited for active service in the military. The Army Nurse Corps (for example), created in 1901, rose from less than 600 active and reserve nurses in 1917 when the US entered the war to more than 21,000 by the armistice, including some 10,000 overseas - including with the AEF. The Naval Nurse Corps had less than 200 nurses in 1917, but expanded seven-fold, to more than 1,400. The Navy (and Marine Corps and Coast Guard) actually recruited women for active service in the US; the Army did not, but did use women contract employees in France. As Army employees, these women (telephone operators, for example) were separate from civilian volunteers like those of the Red Cross who served in France.

The Navy Department under Josephus Daniels was much more progressive than the Army; some 12,000 women enlisted as Yeomen (F), and another 305 as women marines (WM). During the demobilization after the war, they were honorably discharged (some as late as 1921) and listed as veterans; a few even received firearms training.

So if the war lasts longer, into 1919, for example, it is possible - not definite, but possible - that additional women could be recruited, and given the needs for ferry and instructor pilots, it is possible a standout like Katherine Stinson could have ended up serving as what would amount to a WASP two decades earlier...

So, given that precedent, and (perhaps) even greater needs for mobilization in 1940-45 - perhaps as a result of the Russians being knocked out of the war in 1941 akin to 1917 - and the possibility of women pilots assigned to combat roles (either air defense interceptors in the US or ASW/maritime patrol over US waters) seems a possibility.
pistolpacking_custom-277eaefa7afa78dd204296b050abad153816b636-s1100-c15.jpg


Best,
 
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Another idea for a departure point

For the United States:

What if in the thirties it became fashionable for wealthy/ influential women to learn to fly? What if Hollywood starlets like Katherine Hepburn, Greta Garbo and Bette Davis learned to fly? This then puts the idea of female pilots more pop culture. You could have Amelia Earhart become more the female Jimmy Doolittle before her death.

Now let's Jump to 1940-41. What if Jackie Cochran from the beginning pushes for women to be trained as fighter pilots? What if she pushed for a Tuskegee style experiment where females were recruited and trained to fly fighter planes? I think she could get some support from Eleanor Roosevelt.

For Britain:
Once again what if it became fashionable for wealthy women to learn to fly. What if you had a female member of the Royal family getting a pilot's license?

What if in Britain after September 1939 there was more of a total mobilization of war. What I mean is what if from the beginning Woman were trained for possible combat. Instead of just performing service jobs what if women were given weapons training to help defend airfields and man anti-aircraft guns. What if after the fall of France this training was really ramped up. Basically you have the precedent that women will be expected to serve if combat if the Nazis invade.

So now you have women volunteering to fly in the RAF not just as ferry pilots but as fighters in the war effort. What if Churchill allows women to begin training in fighters and bombers more for the propaganda value than anything else. It shows the world that Britain is prepared to put it all on the line. Now what if you have women flying anti-submarine patrols and someone decides that females should start pushing the envelope and actually engaging the enemy.
 
Cochran wanted the WASPS formally inducted into the AAF at one point, IIRC. If the RAF has women flying combat, and there are American women in their own Eagle Squadron, she'll have good reason to do so, and Mrs. Roosevelt would be on her side. And that would include combat. Especially if you have a female Ace in said Eagle Squadron. "They're good enough for the RAF, so why not our military?"
 

TFSmith121

Banned
The thing is, just based on the realities of sexism in the

For the United States:

What if in the thirties it became fashionable for wealthy/ influential women to learn to fly? What if Hollywood starlets like Katherine Hepburn, Greta Garbo and Bette Davis learned to fly? This then puts the idea of female pilots more pop culture. You could have Amelia Earhart become more the female Jimmy Doolittle before her death.

Now let's Jump to 1940-41. What if Jackie Cochran from the beginning pushes for women to be trained as fighter pilots? What if she pushed for a Tuskegee style experiment where females were recruited and trained to fly fighter planes? I think she could get some support from Eleanor Roosevelt.

For Britain:
Once again what if it became fashionable for wealthy women to learn to fly. What if you had a female member of the Royal family getting a pilot's license?

What if in Britain after September 1939 there was more of a total mobilization of war. What I mean is what if from the beginning Woman were trained for possible combat. Instead of just performing service jobs what if women were given weapons training to help defend airfields and man anti-aircraft guns. What if after the fall of France this training was really ramped up. Basically you have the precedent that women will be expected to serve if combat if the Nazis invade.

So now you have women volunteering to fly in the RAF not just as ferry pilots but as fighters in the war effort. What if Churchill allows women to begin training in fighters and bombers more for the propaganda value than anything else. It shows the world that Britain is prepared to put it all on the line. Now what if you have women flying anti-submarine patrols and someone decides that females should start pushing the envelope and actually engaging the enemy.

The thing is, just based on the realities of sexism in the West in the 1940s, there needs to be some sort of "precedent-setting" experience; given the realities of how long it has taken for Western nations to allow women to fly in combat, even with historical precedents going back to WW II, seems really doubtful that this sort of policy change could come into being in the 1940s absent some sort of precedent.

Even then it's something of a stretch, but at least one can posit it.

Best,
 
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Cochran wanted the WASPS formally inducted into the AAF at one point, IIRC. If the RAF has women flying combat, and there are American women in their own Eagle Squadron, she'll have good reason to do so, and Mrs. Roosevelt would be on her side. And that would include combat. Especially if you have a female Ace in said Eagle Squadron. "They're good enough for the RAF, so why not our military?"

Jackie Cochran recruited American female pilots for the British ATA OTL. What if Cochran goes to an England that is already standing up a all female RAF squadron and stays on to build a female Eagle squadron?
 
That is very possible. And if she's the senior ranking American in the squadron, she might inherit command when the AAF inducts the Eagle squadrons-the 4th FG, which the Eagles became when they went to the AAF, had the 334th, 335th, and 336th Fighter Squadrons (formerly No. 71, 121, and 133 Squadrons in the RAF). The women would probably form the 337th, and eventually be the nucleus of an all-female fighter group in the 8th Fighter Command. Having a few female aces increases the pressure on the AAF to induct them, btw.

The AAF would probably train up an all-female bomb group (probably a medium group with B-26s or A-20s) and deploy them to England (9th AF) or the Med (12th AF) One very good reason for Europe: if shot down and captured, downed aircrew get the Stalag Luft treatment, where conditions were somewhat tolerable, but compared to the Pacific.....
 
The Precedent for Women in Combat

TFSmith121 brought up the idea of setting a precedent for women to be in combat. We have been looking at the aviation side but we need to look at the ground side.

For example while there were a few Black fighter pilots in WWI the precedent for starting the Tuskegee Airmen was that Blacks have served in combat since the Civil War in segregated units. Also being men does not hurt either. Black fighter pilots was simply the next level of combat. In the British Empire Blacks served in Native African regiments and you had the Indian Army.

While women had fought with men in isolated incidents (Molly Pitcher, women posing as men or as partisans) In modern times before WWI there was never a all female combat unit. So yes we have to set some precedent.

Japhy mentioned the women's suffrage movement and once again I have to agree. I think this would be another point of departure. I think you would need the woman's suffrage groups in the west to get behind the war effort. They would need to push for not just women serving as nurses but bearing arms as well. Maybe Emmeline Pankhurst who was pretty militant calls for women to be trained to defend themselves?

What if the women's groups used the "Rape of Belgium" as a call to arms? France was invaded by the Germans. So what if you have "Joan of Arc battalions" French women forming units and training with rifles. Perhaps they swear to defend France and their virtue. Maybe these female battalions are seen as a reserve force in case the Germans ever break through the trenches. Perhaps this idea catches on in Britain and Women are allowed into the armed services and serve as sentries for military hospitals for example. In the United States you have this military training continuing. Maybe women are trained to man coastal batteries. Annie Oakley was very much alive during WWI. Maybe she teaches marksmanship to female recruits? While women are not actually not in combat like their Russian sisters in the east they are seen with weapons so some sort of precedent is set.

Not jump forward to 1939. I think you will need a strong women's rights movement reviving itself. The Tuskegee Airmen had an early civil rights movement backing them up. Once again you need women wanting to serve not just to free up men but actually taking part in the fighting. In Both Britain and the United States perhaps you have female WWI veterans trying to re-enlist.
 
It would be interesting if you had American women serving in a female Eagle squadron. I think Mrs. Roosevelt might push to accept female combat pilots. But the question is for the AAF will it actually let female pilots get real combat time? Or will they simply be flying patrol missions away from the fighting in Hawaii or the California coast?

I have a sneaking suspicion they would spend their time flying "Combat Patrols" over North Dakota - Gotta watch those Canucks!

You need either someplace having planes (or cash), but desperate for pilots, way out in the boonies, or a place where royalty or very wealthy individuals can raise their own airforce. Anyway it's gonna be small scale.

Abyssinia could be interesting, particularly since a good showing against the italians would have a favorable press.

The problem with Britain is that they had their own female aviators setting world records in the 20's, and they didn't like it :eek:
Once the novelty wore off after a few years, the papers stopped reporting, the economic backers lost interest and they social pressure was on to be "Good Girls". By the early thirties they had all retired or converted to Husband & Wife teams.

For britain to use female pilots early enough to matter you need some changes.
Maybe the RAF listens to their pals (ha) in the Armee de l'Air and are slow to ramp up pilot training. Combine with a worse Battle of France where more squadrons are sent to France with higher pilot losses than OTL.
Suddenly anyone who can fly becomes a critical asset...
 
Nope... some tried, actually, and got turned down:

http://www.hazelyinglee.com/main.html

Best,[/QUOTE

I just looked her up on google. Ms. Lee sounds like she could have been a real top gun. This thread makes you wonder how much talent these women could have brought to the air war against the Germans and Japanese. Hell the soviets produced two female aces in the war.

Just had a thought: what if it came out after the fall of the Soviet Union that several MIG Aces of the Korean War were Russian females?
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Presumably a fair amount, but again - progress is always incremental

Nope... some tried, actually, and got turned down:

http://www.hazelyinglee.com/main.html

Best,[/QUOTE

I just looked her up on google. Ms. Lee sounds like she could have been a real top gun. This thread makes you wonder how much talent these women could have brought to the air war against the Germans and Japanese. Hell the soviets produced two female aces in the war.

Just had a thought: what if it came out after the fall of the Soviet Union that several MIG Aces of the Korean War were Russian females?

Presumably a fair amount, but again - progress is always incremental; getting the WASPS in 1941-45 required the precedents of the women who served as nurses or yeomenettes, etc. in 1917-18, plus the suffragettes.

That's my thinking behind a "auxiliary" precedent in WW I, due to a longer war - one that lasts into 1919.

If Katherine Stinson, for example, gets an auxiliary assignment as an instructor pilot in 1918 (not that far from her work as an air mail pilot), then it is possible - not likely, but possible - the WASPS are made part of the WACs (not WAACs) in the 1940 mobilization for ferrying and instructor duties, under someone like (for example) Nancy Harkness Love as the CO for ferrying and Jackie Cochran for instruction:

Love

Cochran

Then, if the Russians fold up in 1941 (shades of 1917) the strategic situation in terms of manpower looks very different, and one could see women pilots flying maritime patrol and air defense missions in the Western Hemisphere, at least.

That's pushing it, of course, but seems the only way both the stakes could be raised and the precedent would be in place for women combat pilots in the west in WW II.

Korea's an interesting question.

Best,
 

MrP

Banned
First female combat pilot to win the Croix de Guerre, and get a stamp, she bombed Metz in 1915. She was quite a medal collector.
I think we've found the original Mary Sue:

Marie Marvingt (20 February 1875 – 14 December 1963) was a French athlete, mountaineer, aviator and journalist. She won numerous prizes for her sporting achievements including those of swimming, cycling, mountain climbing, winter sports, ballooning, flying, riding, gymnastics, athletics, rifle shooting and fencing. She was the first woman to climb many of the peaks in the French and Swiss Alps. She was a record-breaking balloonist, a pioneering aviator and during World War I became the first woman to fly combat missions as a bomber pilot. She was also a qualified surgical nurse, was the first trained and certified Flight Nurse in the world, and worked for the establishment of air ambulance services throughout the world.
 
Could the same arguments be used for an all female sub force?



There were women tough/strong enough, there were women boat handlers/farmers/coal miners at that time. It wasn't a woman problem, it has always been a western male attitude problem to let them try and honestly succeed or fail.
 
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