Earliest Assault Rifles
- Thread starter anw_rev
- Start date
Cook
Banned
Except when they don't:Like so many other things, the Russians invented this too
http://milpas.cc/rifles/ZFiles/Assult%20Rifles/CEI-RIGOTTI/CEI-RIGOTTI.html
Except when Mexico beat everybody to the punch! IN THE MIDDLE OF A CIVIL WAR!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondragón_rifle
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondragón_rifle
Wolfpaw
Banned
Both of those were more automatic rifles than assault rifles. Cei-Rigotti's contraption was notoriously unreliable, though I am impressed with Mexico's product.
The AF, on the other hand, went on to directly influence this puppy. Which is kinda ironic...
That's a semi-otomatic rifle, not a fully one like a true assault rifle.
It would be helpful to have an agreed-upon definition of what "true" assault rifle is.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assault_rifle
The Mondragon does seem to fit the description, but if someone has a better definition, I'm all ears.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assault_rifle
The Mondragon does seem to fit the description, but if someone has a better definition, I'm all ears.
So the term "assault rifle" is about the calibre, not number of bullets in the magazine
UrbanRedneck
Banned
Someone once posted how Denmark had such a weapon around 1890 or so. Anyone able to bring that up?
Partially. It matters a lot on were one categorises the FN FAL, G3 and M14; they were select-fire (apart from some Commonwealth models of the FAL), but the 7.62mm NATO round they fire isn't all that intermediary.
Well it's only intermediary meaning that it's smaller than a rifle cartridge. It's less of a distinction now because most modern armies use primarily assault rifles. But for the purposes of the thread I think we should consider it an assault rifle if it can go full automatic and has a smaller cartridge than the standard service rifle in use at the time in the country concerned.
The mondragon is an assault rifle when you consider it can fire semi-auto but its caliber the 7x57 mauser is much heavier than the .223 3000J versus 1800J (the 3000J is much closer to the 7,62 NATO's 3500J)
but its a good contender for the first assault rifle.
I think the closest caliber that you can get to a assault rifle cartridge at the beginning of the 20th century is the 6,5x50 Arisaka (2600J), the russians started using it for the Fedorov because they felt it was much more appropriate for an automatic weapon that a full size caliber. Personally i think the Fedorov is the first assault rifle where the Mondragon is more like a BAR. Had the Russian had the chance of producing more Fedorovs and had it gotten the chance to prove itself then it would have set an example decades earlier (instead of the stg44). And you might have seen a load of assault rifles in the inthe late 10s & 20s
At this time the generals still think that bigger is better, so when they get an example that shows different they may follow it, just like the way the StG44 set an example in OTL.
but its a good contender for the first assault rifle.
I think the closest caliber that you can get to a assault rifle cartridge at the beginning of the 20th century is the 6,5x50 Arisaka (2600J), the russians started using it for the Fedorov because they felt it was much more appropriate for an automatic weapon that a full size caliber. Personally i think the Fedorov is the first assault rifle where the Mondragon is more like a BAR. Had the Russian had the chance of producing more Fedorovs and had it gotten the chance to prove itself then it would have set an example decades earlier (instead of the stg44). And you might have seen a load of assault rifles in the inthe late 10s & 20s
At this time the generals still think that bigger is better, so when they get an example that shows different they may follow it, just like the way the StG44 set an example in OTL.
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I remember reading in Soldier of Fortune about the development of a version of the recoil action just prior to and during WWII that made .30-06 feel like .22 short rimfire. In fact, one of the prictures depicted the son of the original inventor testifring a man-portable .50 BMG sized autocannon. Unfortunately, there were a series of setbacks to the program:
1: It was Australian in origin, which meant that it had nigh-insurmountable political disadvantage anywhere outside the British Commonwealth. (And plenty of it within it when Britain or Canada and Australia had different parliamentary majorities).
2: It was being worked on in Queensland, which meant a serious disruption of R&D after New Guinea was occupied.
3: Australian test prototypes against first the L1A1 and FAL and then Steyr AUG and FAMAS, according to its inventors, won the contest according to any regular standard of accuracy, reliability, and controllability, but test details about ease of cleaning and loading featured notes that didn't match up with the numerical ratings. Furthermore, the inventors implied that the contest was rigged against them by politicans and quartermasters compromsied by Enfield, FN, FA, and Steyr.
Assuming the possible screwdriver that this could have been made to work if critical research hadn't had to be abandoned and restarted, how would it have changed WWII and Post-WWII warfare to have had a weapon that fired battle rifle calibers at full auto with full rage with the accuracy and controlability (and weight range) of an assault rifle?
1: It was Australian in origin, which meant that it had nigh-insurmountable political disadvantage anywhere outside the British Commonwealth. (And plenty of it within it when Britain or Canada and Australia had different parliamentary majorities).
2: It was being worked on in Queensland, which meant a serious disruption of R&D after New Guinea was occupied.
3: Australian test prototypes against first the L1A1 and FAL and then Steyr AUG and FAMAS, according to its inventors, won the contest according to any regular standard of accuracy, reliability, and controllability, but test details about ease of cleaning and loading featured notes that didn't match up with the numerical ratings. Furthermore, the inventors implied that the contest was rigged against them by politicans and quartermasters compromsied by Enfield, FN, FA, and Steyr.
Assuming the possible screwdriver that this could have been made to work if critical research hadn't had to be abandoned and restarted, how would it have changed WWII and Post-WWII warfare to have had a weapon that fired battle rifle calibers at full auto with full rage with the accuracy and controlability (and weight range) of an assault rifle?
RamscoopRaider
Donor
Body armor becomes less important and common, or not depending on what dangers are represented the most
The difference is academic only, the Mondragón rifle could have been modified to chamber a less powerful round.
Selectable semi- and full-automatic fire.