Earlierst General Relativity Eclipse Experiment

In 1919 the theory of general relativity was confirmed by observing and photographing stars seemingly changing their position during a full solar eclipse due to the effects of gravity on light.

How early in history the result of this kind of experiment could potentially been observed and recorded? The experiment doesn't need to be conducted to prove general relativity and doesn't need to be immediately followed by any coherent light-gravity theory, but it needs to be rigorous enough not to be dismissed as an instrument flaw or observation error.

For that matter, what would be the implications of the observation that light can bend in if general relativity has not yet been introduced? Alternatively, could you think of some wrong explanation for that phenomena that could be adopted instead?
 
Carl Sagan supposedly theorized that James Clerk Maxwell could have developed the idea of relativity if he had lived longer. If the theory is developed in the 1880s (for example) it may be tested much earlier than OTL too.

Though i have no idea about the technological limitations that may prevent this.

This may be a place to start. Good Luck
 
Carl Sagan supposedly theorized that James Clerk Maxwell could have developed the idea of relativity if he had lived longer. If the theory is developed in the 1880s (for example) it may be tested much earlier than OTL too.

Though i have no idea about the technological limitations that may prevent this.

This may be a place to start. Good Luck
Could you source Sagan's comments on that?
 
The special theory of relativity owes its origins to Maxwell's equations of the electromagnetic field.
Albert Einstein, as quoted in New Scientist, Vol. 130 (1991), p. 49

Maxwell's equations have had a greater impact on human history than any ten presidents.
Carl Sagan

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/James_Clerk_Maxwell

However the actual statement by Sagan about Maxwell possibly being able to develop relativity if he had live longer is hard for me to find. I think it may be in A Demon Haunted World, Sagan has a chapter about Maxwell in that book. I will keep looking
 
mirage

I think the bending of light could be accommadated to the theory of ether. A massive object such as the sun would attract a dense cloud of ether. As light is refracted from air to the denser water or from warmer to cooler air, light would be refracted toward the denser ether near the sun. This would last until Michelson and Morley.
 
Maxwell's equations were almost the only piece of nineteenth-century physics that was already fully compatible with Special Relativity (General Relativity is an entirely different branch of physics). I also recall reading that had Maxwell lived longer (he died at the age of 48), he could have developed Special Relativity. He certainly had the creativity and sheer mathematical brainpower to do so, and his latest efforts before he died were leading in that direction already.
 
I found this:

http://bado-shanai.net/map of physics/mopMaxwellsRelativity.htm

But finding that half-remembered Sagan quote seems to be coming up dry for me. Still, this link may be enough to start. edvardas idea of Ether clouds created by massive bodies like the sun is interesting. It may be possible to develop advanced ideas, like the Higgs field with this as a start, though there would be a lot of experiments necessary to get to that point.
 
I think the bending of light could be accommadated to the theory of ether. A massive object such as the sun would attract a dense cloud of ether.
Wasn't ether supposed to be uniform? If ether can be "denser" then it's essentially a gravitational field for light. I like that interpretation.
 
If you take Maxwell's equations, and assume the invariance of the velocity of light to all observers, you end up with Special Relativity. This is how Einstein developed SR in his first paper, he started with Maxwell's equations, and asked what needed to happen to keep them valid under all conditions -- in other words, to make them universally applicable. Special Relativity is really just the completion of what Maxwell originally created. This is one reason why SR is considered part of Classical Mechanics. Quantum Mechanics, on the other hand, was something entirely new.

As for General Relativity, it has become increasingly evident that it is merely a close approximation to physical reality. I don't know what form the "true" theory of gravity will take, although I do like Verlinde's Entropic Gravity. So far, it appears to explain in a very natural way many (and perhaps all) of the increasingly numerous anomalous observations at various scales, that GR cannot explain without recourse to magical elves (AKA Dark Matter and Dark Energy).
 
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This paper just appeared on the arXive server: From aether theory to Special Relativity

In 1873 Maxwell published his Treatise on Electricity and Magnetism, where electricity and magnetism appeared as two parts of a sole entity: the electromagnetic field. Maxwell’s laws for the electromagnetic field contained as particular cases the well known electrostatic interactions between charges and magnetostatic interactions between steady currents. But the very Maxwell’s achievement was to discover that variable electric and magnetic fields –E and B– create each other. This mutual feedback between electricity and magnetism generates electromagnetic waves. [...] To Maxwell’s surprise, the value of c coincided with the already measured speed of light; so Maxwell concluded that light was an electromagnetic wave.

Differing from Classical Mechanics, Maxwell’s electromagnetism will fit the Special Relativity without changes. Einstein will defy the classical viewpoint by considering that Maxwell’s equations should be valid in any inertial frame. If so, the speed of light would be invariant (i.e., it would have the same value in any inertial frame). To sustain this idea, Galileo transformations should be replaced with transformations leaving invariant the speed of light; this implies the abandonment of the classical invariance of distances and time intervals. In Special Relativity, Maxwell’s electromagnetism will become a paradigmatic theory.
 
Bending of light is a general relativity matter, not special.

Maxwells equations only get you to special relativity, and then maybe only if youre Einstein.

As for general, Einstein took the new mathematical field of differential geometry, and took it in his own direections. So, general relativity is very unlikely to come much earlier than otl.
 
In 1919 the theory of general relativity was confirmed by observing and photographing stars seemingly changing their position during a full solar eclipse due to the effects of gravity on light.

How early in history the result of this kind of experiment could potentially been observed and recorded? The experiment doesn't need to be conducted to prove general relativity and doesn't need to be immediately followed by any coherent light-gravity theory, but it needs to be rigorous enough not to be dismissed as an instrument flaw or observation error.
The latter is a tall order! It's rather implausible that those conditions can be met under reasonable circumstances, since even with GTR predictions being highly anticipated, it was not completely unambiguous at the time that Eddington's 1919 observations supported GTR over Newton (though later analysis supported Eddington).

For that matter, what would be the implications of the observation that light can bend in if general relativity has not yet been introduced? Alternatively, could you think of some wrong explanation for that phenomena that could be adopted instead?
Unless it's measured very accurately, it'll be a puzzle but not an obviously critical one. It's consistent with Newtonian gravitation that light can bend in a gravitational field--famously, Laplace even predicted the possibility of a 'dark star', the Newtonian analogue of a black hole, in 1796. The puzzle would be how to reconcile it with the newer wave theory, since it was completely straightforward in the old corpuscular theory of light, but wave theory had much more critical puzzles of the same type anyway.

Carl Sagan supposedly theorized that James Clerk Maxwell could have developed the idea of relativity if he had lived longer. If the theory is developed in the 1880s (for example) it may be tested much earlier than OTL too.
Maxwell was smart, but he didn't have nearly the mathematical machinery for GTR. Here Einstein had the nigh-immesurable advantage of having been born later. But even for STR, Maxwell probably didn't have the mindset for it.

I also recall reading that had Maxwell lived longer (he died at the age of 48), he could have developed Special Relativity. He certainly had the creativity and sheer mathematical brainpower to do so, and his latest efforts before he died were leading in that direction already.
Are you sure about that? What are you thinking of?

I know he made a brief digression on gravity in his original 1864 paper on electromagnetism noting the failure of the stressed-mechanical-medium (i.e., aether) approch for gravity, despite his use of it for EM. In 1875 wrote for Britannica:
A theory of this kind is worked out in greater detail in Clerk Maxwell's Treatise on Electricity and Magnetism. It is there shown that, if we assume that the medium is in a state of stress, consisting of tension along the lines of force and pressure in all directions at right angles to the lines of force, the tension and the pressure being equal in numerical value and proportional to the square of the intensity of the field at the given point, the observed electrostatic and electromagnetic forces will be completely accounted for.
...
The force of gravitation ... differs from the electric and magnetic forces in this respect, that the bodies between which it acts cannot be divided into two opposite kinds, one positive and the other negative, but are in respect of gravitation all of the same kind, and that the force between them is in every case attractive. To account for such a force by means of stress in an intervening medium, on the plan adopted for electric and magnetic forces, we must assume a stress of an opposite kind from that already mentioned. We must suppose that there is a pressure in the direction of the lines of force, combined with a tension in all directions at right angles to the lines of force. Such a state of stress would, no doubt, account for the observed effects of gravitation. We have not, however, been able hitherto to imagine any physical cause for such a state of stress.
...
Another theory of the mechanism of gravitation, that of Le Sage, who attributes it to the impact of "ultramundane corpuscules," has been already discussed in the article ATOM, supra, p. 46.
He did die soon after (1878), but if his 1864 paper and 1875 article are representative of his actual views--and this might not be the case, but I've seen nothing to suggest they aren't--then Maxwell not only did not advance toward STR, but in some sense made negative progress, by having a strange sort of 'double aether' for gravity.

Special Relativity is really just the completion of what Maxwell originally created. This is one reason why SR is considered part of Classical Mechanics. Quantum Mechanics, on the other hand, was something entirely new.
Here's an exercise for and alternate history of QM: wave optics must reduce to geometrical (ray) optics, ray optics are essentially the ancient particle (corpuscular) theory of light. In phase space, Fermat's principle of least time for light rays plays the same role as Hamilton's principle of least action for particles, with the eikonal (light) corresponding to the abbreviated action (particles).

The de Broglie relations of QM fall out taking this analogy seriously; in an alternate timeline that someone had the unnatural idea to try describing particles with waves because the Hamiltonian formalism works well for both, the de Broglie relations and the Schrödinger equation are derivable without knowing any lick of experimental support for QM. So, what? Is QM "really just the completion" of the Hamiltonian (or Lagrangian) formulations of classical mechanics? Well, not really (still need Born rule), but if we're making uncharitable enough comparisons, there is nothing new under the sun. Pretty much nothing ever has sprung up from an intellectual vacuum.

By the way, STR is not part of Classical Mechanics. It's a theory so general it might even be called a 'meta-theory', because it is a core constraint on every mainstream theory in the last eighty years or so.

As for General Relativity, it has become increasingly evident that it is merely a close approximation to physical reality. I don't know what form the "true" theory of gravity will take, although I do like Verlinde's Entropic Gravity. So far, it appears to explain in a very natural way many (and perhaps all) of the increasingly numerous anomalous observations at various scales, ...
Well, there's no accounting for taste. However, it is very unnatural and goes directly against the lessons from every other fundamental forces.

... that GR cannot explain without recourse to magical elves (AKA Dark Matter and Dark Energy).
Dark matter is a problem, but I wouldn't (and more importantly, most physicists on this problem wouldn't) consider it likely to be a problem with gravity, but rather a problem for GUTs, which almost generically predict heavy DM particles to some extent anyway. From that point of view, it's not even a qualitatively new kind of thing relative to experimental data, since the standard model includes light DM particles.

Dark energy isn't classically a problem at all; it's been in GTR since 1917, being quite literally the simplest possible theory after the initial 1915 1916 version of GTR. Quantum-mechanically, it's again a quantitative rather than qualitative issue, since the quantum mechanics predicts energy in vacuum. So then it appears to be just an analogue of the old QM renormalization problems.
 
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Unless it's measured very accurately, it'll be a puzzle but not an obviously critical one. It's consistent with Newtonian gravitation that light can bend in a gravitational field--famously, Laplace even predicted the possibility of a 'dark star', the Newtonian analogue of a black hole, in 1796. The puzzle would be how to reconcile it with the newer wave theory, since it was completely straightforward in the old corpuscular theory of light, but wave theory had much more critical puzzles of the same type anyway.
Right. But, except that the light bending in General Relativity is twice that that Newtonian physics predicts, IIRC. (It's been 30 years since I took that Relativity class..) So if you can measure the bending at all, you can measure the difference from predictions.
 
Right. But, except that the light bending in General Relativity is twice that that Newtonian physics predicts, IIRC.
Correct: to linear order in Φ/c², GTR light deflection in a static weak field is exactly twice the Newtonian one.

So if you can measure the bending at all, you can measure the difference from predictions.
That's not sufficient. Suppose you do a Newtonian calculations and predict a light deflection of 0.87 seconds of arc. You go to Príncipe to chase an eclipse. You obtain on your photographic plates evidence of light from five stars having an average deflection of 1.61". Well, Newton's wrong right?

Not so fast. How good are your measurements? Did you account for temperature variations warping your photographic plates and telescope equipment (the Sobral expedition almost had all their results ruined by mirror warping)? The effects of the atmosphere on light? Anyone who's seen a hot road or been in a desert would have seen very dramatic mirages; this is smaller, but when you're looking looking for under 1" differences, that's going to a very important concern. Did you account for those effects between observations under different days and weather? What about changing conditions in the eclipse itself? What about any other systematic errors? (Eddington's main equipment recorded 0.93" deflection, by the way, but he had good reason to believe contamination problems with it. The 1.61" result was from his smaller backup telescope.)

So how good are your measurements? If you can't reasonably conclude better than 0.8" error, your result completely worthless. Eddington's analysis was ±0.4". So hypothetically sans GTR already predicting otherwise, this less than 2σ disagreement with Newton--which is barely interesting enough to publish even under the notoriously loose medical science standards, much less those of physics.

As it happened, Sobral had better luck than the Príncipe and produced better evidence, so the overall picture wasn't as bleak as this. But the point is that having a factor of two sometimes just isn't good enough to tell things apart, especially in the context of this particular question where you don't have a competing alternative that's already very compelling to snatch up the reins. Even with Sobral, you'd have to think long and hard about whether you've sufficiently accounts for sources of error and if so, whether statistics based on a few stars are really all that meaningful.

If there weren't already recognized problems with how to square Newtonian gravitation and special relativity, I think it would have taken a long time and many expeditions before the accumulated evidence was compelling enough to make most physicists pay serious attention. And rightly so--people paid more attention than they would have otherwise because the results simultaneously confirmed GTR's predictions, which solved many other problems besides, not just because they went against Newton.
 
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