Earlier use of combat helmets and body armour in WW1

[Driftless]

I believe there is some apocryphal info that contends that padded winter jackets as the Chinese armies wore, had some utility in reducing bullet or shrapnel penetration. Not enough to stop a rifle round at a couple of hundred yards, but some benefit. If true, might that have encouraged the stylish young lordship to purchase a custom designed heavily layered silk vest/waistcoat to wear under his trench coat?

 

[DaveBC]

The heavy pre Kevlar fiberglass plated flak jackets I trained in during the 1970s were used by the Marines in Viet Nam. Most Marine veterans I knew wore theirs routinely in battle, mostly because we all met someone who had escaped being maimed or killed via that protection. They were willing to endure the extra weight when under fire.

I'm not discounting your military experience in any way, but obviously fiberglass isn't an option here because it doesn't exist yet.

Although later in the war it might be different, especially early on, persuading the senior levels of the respective armies that they should outfit their troops with something that makes them even slower and less mobile on the battlefield might be a tough sell. I don't doubt the men in the front lines would welcome more protection but they're not the ones who have to be persuaded to sign the procurement orders.

 

[Carl Schwamberger]

I'm not discounting your military experience in any way, but obviously fiberglass isn't an option here because it doesn't exist yet.

...

Thin steel plates did. The most dangerous shell fragments are in the one to three cm diameter range, a couple mm of steel, or a deck of playing cards can do a lot to reduce injury to the torso. The difference between having that two cm fragment in your Lung or Aorta, or picking it out of surface tissue.

 

[yulzari]

Thin steel plates did. The most dangerous shell fragments are in the one to three cm diameter range, a couple mm of steel, or a deck of playing cards can do a lot to reduce injury to the torso. The difference between having that two cm fragment in your Lung or Aorta, or picking it out of surface tissue.

To be pedantic these fragments are the ones most likely to hit you, not the most dangerous ones that might hit you.

I believe there is some apocryphal info that contends that padded winter jackets as the Chinese armies wore, had some utility in reducing bullet or shrapnel penetration. Not enough to stop a rifle round at a couple of hundred yards, but some benefit. If true, might that have encouraged the stylish young lordship to purchase a custom designed heavily layered silk vest/waistcoat to wear under his trench coat?

In the Crimean War there were anecdotal suggestions that the loose heavy woollen greatcoats of Russian soldiers would impede a musket ball when wet. Women who were victims of Irish Terrorist bombs in the Troubles demonstrated that even a normal skirt will offer a small but noticeable degree of protection from smaller fragments and glass shards may hang up on the threads to reduce penetration into the legs. Certainly a wet heavy woollen blanket laid over a line will billow out to stop most rounds but then you would need the world's largest set of skirt hoops to give it enough room on a soldier. BTW the average British infantry officer (just like the usual BoB pilot) was a grammar school boy from exceedingly middling parents or promoted from the ranks so 'their stylish young lordship' misrepresents subalterns although those of titled background were over represented in the field.

 

[Driftless]

I believe there is some apocryphal info that contends that padded winter jackets as the Chinese armies wore, had some utility in reducing bullet or shrapnel penetration. Not enough to stop a rifle round at a couple of hundred yards, but some benefit. If true, might that have encouraged the stylish young lordship to purchase a custom designed heavily layered silk vest/waistcoat to wear under his trench coat?

BTW the average British infantry officer (just like the usual BoB pilot) was a grammar school boy from exceedingly middling parents or promoted from the ranks so 'their stylish young lordship' misrepresents subalterns although those of titled background were over represented in the field.

My apologies for the "Lordship" comment being irritating - it would have been better expressed by "the stylish young man-of-wealth...". My notion was as much tongue-in-cheek vs. a real suggestion; though it seems there may have been a nugget of an idea there. I was thinking of combining the limited effect of a padded fabric vest(long torso - high neck) with the great strength of silk in layers-- which would make such a vest quite expensive.

 

[Catsmate]

My Uncle credited the vest with stopping mortar fragments that went off nearby, and while they were very uncomfortable in the Central Highlands in 1967, but much less so than being perforated.

Yeah, having holes poked in you is generally unpleasant.

 

[Catsmate]

This is all forming part of a Great War asb tl, that I am planning.

The heavy pre Kevlar fiberglass plated flak jackets I trained in during the 1970s were used by the Marines in Viet Nam. Most Marine veterans I knew wore theirs routinely in battle, mostly because we all met someone who had escaped being maimed or killed via that protection. They were willing to endure the extra weight when under fire.

Hmmm, fibreglass is one of those things (like sarin, sulfa drugs and the laser) that could have been developed earlier. Historically it was discovered accidentally by Slayter in 1932, but the technique could have happened a couple of decades earlier. However useful armour material would also require a resin, historically polyster resin developed in 1941, itself based on the Ellis patent of 1933. So it's require a couple of changes to history but isn't that far out.
Of course the availability of such materials, in quantity, in time for WW1, would be revolutionary in other fields. Aviation for example.

 

[La Rouge Beret]

Hmmm, fibreglass is one of those things (like sarin, sulfa drugs and the laser) that could have been developed earlier. Historically it was discovered accidentally by Slayter in 1932, but the technique could have happened a couple of decades earlier. However useful armour material would also require a resin, historically polyster resin developed in 1941, itself based on the Ellis patent of 1933. So it's require a couple of changes to history but isn't that far out.
Of course the availability of such materials, in quantity, in time for WW1, would be revolutionary in other fields. Aviation for example.

Although difficult to discuss not knowing the facts of the proposed TL, how long would it take to be able to construct fibreglass body armour in large enough quantities to partially equip several infantry battalions? Would a two to three year TL seem appropriate or would it be earlier or later?

 

[Carl Schwamberger]

To be pedantic these fragments are the ones most likely to hit you, not the most dangerous ones that might hit you.

...

Pendantic would be citing details of Soviet & US army tests that showed fragments of approx two cm being the most dangerous since the number of hits rapidly declines as the fragments become larger. Examination of wounds on pigs (US Army) showed the level of trauma from a larger fragment did not increase in proportion to fragment size. I suspect they were not doing full autopsies on the pigs and only doing a external inspection as hits on the brain case of the skull could have trauma to the brain in proportion to the mass of the fragment. But then i only read the summaries & not the orginall data of the tests.

IIRC correctly there are some articles on the US Army tests in the 1920s volumes of the US Field Artillery Journal.

 

[Carl Schwamberger]

Hmmm, fibreglass is one of those things (like sarin, sulfa drugs and the laser) that could have been developed earlier. Historically it was discovered accidentally by Slayter in 1932, but the technique could have happened a couple of decades earlier. However useful armour material would also require a resin, historically polyster resin developed in 1941, itself based on the Ellis patent of 1933. So it's require a couple of changes to history but isn't that far out.
Of course the availability of such materials, in quantity, in time for WW1, would be revolutionary in other fields. Aviation for example.

Its counter intuitive but we were shooting nails into various items yesterday & found there was as much resistance from a couple cm of layered compacted paper than a couple mm of sheet steel. Or, more accurately the extention of the nail from the underside of the sheet steel was further than the underside of the paper.

Baked linnseed or flaxseed oils make a fairly dense resin & have been in commercial use from the latter 19th Century. ie: Linoleum & Linncrusta.

 

[Catsmate]

Although difficult to discuss not knowing the facts of the proposed TL, how long would it take to be able to construct fibreglass body armour in large enough quantities to partially equip several infantry battalions? Would a two to three year TL seem appropriate or would it be earlier or later?

Well now that's an interesting question...

Let's take 1893 as our starting point; the year in which one Edward Drummond Libbey (a glassmaker from Toledo[1]) exhibited a dress incorporating glass fibres with a diameter and texture approximating that of silk fibres at the Chicago Columbian Exposition. Say someone notices, talks to Libbey and by 1895 the process that Slayter discovered has been developed. I don't believe it would be impossible with the technology of the period.
Now, as Carl Schwamberger pointed out, there were earlier alternatives to polyester (I studied chemistry so I tend to think first of synthetics, the idea of using polymerised natural oils just didn't occur to me) that could form suitable resins. It's been a couple of decades since my materials science classes but I believe that a couple of years of experimentation could yield a useful material incorporating glass fibres in a resin. Say by 1902[2] the material is in limited production and people are wondering what to do with it.

Then, the following year a couple of bicycle makers developed a contraption that allowed them to fly, in a somewhat controlled manner, for a short distance through the air.[3]

So let's assume the big bits of history plot along more-or-less as OTL and the Great War starts on schedule in 1914[4]. At this stage I'd say the new fibreglass would be in production on a reasonable scale, for things like aircraft elements and motor torpedo boats, and could start to be used for splinter vests, at least on a small scale initially.

BTW if anyone does develop a timeline based on this idea, don't forget to include Amos Root. Another Ohioan and a fascinating character.


[1] Interestingly Libbey employed one Michael Owens and helped found the precursor companies to Owens-Illinois where Slayter would develop fibreglass OTL.

[2] Which by an interesting coincidence is the year in which the city of Toledo failed to host the Ohio Centennial and Northwest Territory Exposition. Maybe in this slightly divergent timeline that World's Fair goes ahead. Perhaps this button is made of the new wonder material?

[3] Interesting how many connections the brothers have to Ohio isn't it? Hmmm.

[4] Though maybe FF survives thanks to an experimental bullet resistant waistcoat?

 

[Catsmate]

Its counter intuitive but we were shooting nails into various items yesterday & found there was as much resistance from a couple cm of layered compacted paper than a couple mm of sheet steel. Or, more accurately the extention of the nail from the underside of the sheet steel was further than the underside of the paper.

It's the same principle as silk, which was used for early "bullet proof" vests.

Baked linnseed or flaxseed oils make a fairly dense resin & have been in commercial use from the latter 19th Century. ie: Linoleum & Linncrusta.

That is really clever. It never occurred to me to use natural oils as a basis.

 

[Catsmate]

It strikes me that the idea would make an interesting scenario for a time travel RPG. Arriving in (say) 1920 the PCs find the world almost as they think it should be. Except for cars with fibreglass bodies and similar oddities. What's happened? Why?

Cue some jumps back in time to find out; witness Franz Ferdinand walking away alive in 1914, witnessing the Wrights' first flight, a visit to the Ohio Centennial Exposition to gather clues, and then back to Chicago to solve the problem, with "Homicidal" Holmes mixed in.
And finally a Just War-esque twist...

 

[Carl Schwamberger]

...
That is really clever. It never occurred to me to use natural oils as a basis.

The 19th Century industrial development probably derived from painters. I do recall Romans and other ancients saturating leather for shields with oils and heat treating the formed shields.

 

[wietze]

Its counter intuitive but we were shooting nails into various items yesterday & found there was as much resistance from a couple cm of layered compacted paper than a couple mm of sheet steel. Or, more accurately the extention of the nail from the underside of the sheet steel was further than the underside of the paper.

Baked linnseed or flaxseed oils make a fairly dense resin & have been in commercial use from the latter 19th Century. ie: Linoleum & Linncrusta.

the mythbusters did an episode on that one, on 'mythical' chinese paper armour. turned out to be plausible

 

[Catsmate]

The 19th Century industrial development probably derived from painters. I do recall Romans and other ancients saturating leather for shields with oils and heat treating the formed shields.

Somewhat like treating it with boiling wax?

 

[Carl Schwamberger]

Yeah, I'm guessing a saturation of the leather with resin, kind of a hot glue thing.

Occasionally I use a thinned Linseed or Flaxseed oil to stabilise water & sun damaged wood surfaces. It makes a surface primer paint will stick to. There are similar chemicals on the paint store shelves sold as surface stabilisers.

 

[marathag]

Baked linnseed or flaxseed oils make a fairly dense resin & have been in commercial use from the latter 19th Century. ie: Linoleum & Linncrusta.

This could have been done far earlier as well
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haskelite that was done first in 1916 for waterproof plywood canoes

 

[GunsCarsGuitars]

I believe there is some apocryphal info that contends that padded winter jackets as the Chinese armies wore, had some utility in reducing bullet or shrapnel penetration. Not enough to stop a rifle round at a couple of hundred yards, but some benefit.

Allegedly enough to make M1 carbine rounds less effective.

 

[marathag]

Allegedly enough to make M1 carbine rounds less effective.

The extreme cold weather had more effect.
Some smokeless powder formulations are very effected by the cold

Each Sherman came with two Thompson submachine guns, in caliber 11.43mm (.45 cal), a healthy cartridge indeed! But the submachine gun was worthless. We had several bad experiences with it. A few of our men who got into an argument were wearing padded jackets. It turned out that they fired at each other and the bullet buried itself in the padded jacket. So much for the worthless submachine gun https://iremember.ru/en/memoirs/tankers/dmitriy-loza/