Earlier Switch to Front Drive

kernals12

Banned
The switch from rear to front wheel drive is one of the big engineering advancements in automobiles. Here are some reasons:
Traction: With the engine pushing down on the drive wheels, you get more grip in slippery conditions such as in snow
Handling: Front drive cars are prone to understeer while rear drive cars oversteer. Since most drivers' instinct when their car's tail comes around is to slam on the brakes, which makes it worse, front drive offers safer handling
Packaging: This is the big advantage. By having the drive wheels under the engine, you don't need a driveshaft taking up space in the passenger compartment. You can even turn the engine sideways to make the car shorter without reducing interior space.

Corporate Average Fuel Economy regulations made these advantages very salient in the US. As a result the market share of front wheel drive rose from 11.9% in 1979 to 81.6% in 1989.

2 decades earlier, rear wheel drive was still king on American cars. There were however those who knew the advantages and wanted to bring them to Detroit.

Oldsmobile-Cutlass-1961-wallpaper.jpg

Plans were for the Oldsmobile F-85, later renamed Cutlass, to drive its front wheels. This however was cancelled.

1962_Ford_Taunus_12M_(_P4_)_001_2166.jpg

Ford was planning on selling this car, roughly the same size as the VW Beetle, as the Cardinal. But then Lee Iaccoca scrapped it and the design was used by Ford of Germany for the Taunus (not to be confused with Taurus)

66-toronado-2-momentcar-com.jpg

1967_cadillac_eldorado_used_5081808_1.jpg

In 1966, GM came out with the first two American front wheel drive cars since the 1930s Cord: The Oldsmobile Toronado and the Cadillac Eldorado. These were luxury coupes and as such, cars with front wheel drive remained a novelty for another decade.

So what if the Cardinal and Front Drive Cutlass had come out in the early 60s?
 

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In general, the emergence of front wheel drive passenger cars waited for the low cost availability* of durable constant velocity universal joints from outside specialty suppliers. The suppliers, in turn, waited for large orders from car manufacturers before investing in development and acquisition of manufacturing equipment. The success of '66 Olds Toronado and later El Dorado provided the impetus for these components.

The 'nineties Cadillac Northstar coupes were, in my opinion, the zenith of large front drive automobiled- the Cords of their time.

* For other than "Mini" vehicles

Dynasoar
 

kernals12

Banned
In general, the emergence of front wheel drive passenger cars waited for the low cost availability* of durable constant velocity universal joints from outside specialty suppliers. The suppliers, in turn, waited for large orders from car manufacturers before investing in development and acquisition of manufacturing equipment. The success of '66 Olds Toronado and later El Dorado provided the impetus for these components.

The 'nineties Cadillac Northstar coupes were, in my opinion, the zenith of large front drive automobiled- the Cords of their time.

* For other than "Mini" vehicles

Dynasoar
Didn't Ford and GM produce their own parts? This seems like a very easy to solve chicken and egg problem.
 
Specialty components from highly specialized manufacturers. Like custom ball bearings. When in large scale production, cost analysis may bring production in house (with design and patent rights, etc). This, in general, responds to the question of why so long to FWD.

Dyn
 

kernals12

Banned
Specialty components from highly specialized manufacturers. Like custom ball bearings. When in large scale production, cost analysis may bring production in house (with design and patent rights, etc). This, in general, responds to the question of why so long to FWD.

Dyn
who did Citroen use?
 
In Europe (and Japan) there was an earlier switch to front-wheel drive, starting in the 60s. I'd guess that in 1979 80% of the cars in Europe had front-wheel drive.
 
who did Citroen use?

Haven't the slightest idea. Considering their local reputation for quality and durability, Citroen probably tried to make this component themselves. (Yes, I know they have been building fwd for a hundred years....)

Dynasoar
 

kernals12

Banned
Specialty components from highly specialized manufacturers. Like custom ball bearings. When in large scale production, cost analysis may bring production in house (with design and patent rights, etc). This, in general, responds to the question of why so long to FWD.

Dyn
I would think that there'd be no problem with front drive subcompacts out of Detroit by 1970. Hell, the Toronado and Eldorado proved it can be made to work with land yachts.
 
As I Said in #3:

The success of '66 Olds Toronado and later El Dorado provided the impetus for these components.

The 'nineties Cadillac Northstar coupes were, in my opinion, the zenith of large front drive automobiles- the Cords of their time.

We agree on this at least.

Dynasoar[
 

kernals12

Banned
As I Said in #3:

The success of '66 Olds Toronado and later El Dorado provided the impetus for these components.

The 'nineties Cadillac Northstar coupes were, in my opinion, the zenith of large front drive automobiles- the Cords of their time.

We agree on this at least.

Dynasoar[
What about the Allante? That thing was gorgeous.
 

kernals12

Banned
As I Said in #3:

The success of '66 Olds Toronado and later El Dorado provided the impetus for these components.

The 'nineties Cadillac Northstar coupes were, in my opinion, the zenith of large front drive automobiles- the Cords of their time.

We agree on this at least.

Dynasoar[
Screen Shot 2018-06-19 at 6.47.33 PM.png

Screen Shot 2018-06-19 at 6.47.52 PM.png

It looks like the Constant Velocity Joints weren't a big problem. This is from Popular Science in 1960.
 

kernals12

Banned
One way to get Detroit to move is if VW comes out with something like the Rabbit in, say, 1967 instead of 1974. In 1967, the Beetle was by far the most popular import and was causing great panic among domestic automakers. If Volkswagen had switched, assuming this new car is as popular with Americans as the Beetle, Detroit would probably follow.
 
I would think that there'd be no problem with front drive subcompacts out of Detroit by 1970. Hell, the Toronado and Eldorado proved it can be made to work with land yachts.
What about the Corvair I know it was a rear wheel drive with the rear engine I'm not an engineer but it doesn't appear would be too hard to switch positions of the engine in the trunk.
 

kernals12

Banned
What about the Corvair I know it was a rear wheel drive with the rear engine I'm not an engineer but it doesn't appear would be too hard to switch positions of the engine in the trunk.
There are lots of problems. You have to redesign the suspension to accommodate the weight shift. You need to move the control lines. You need to completely change the front end to accomodate the engine as well as the cooling ducts and you need new engines.
 
There are lots of problems. You have to redesign the suspension to accommodate the weight shift. You need to move the control lines. You need to completely change the front end to accomodate the engine as well as the cooling ducts and you need new engines.
I wasn't specifically talking about changing the Corvair to a front wheel drive car. What I was implying was that GM knew how to make cars with the engine and transmission together at one end of the car versus strung-out through the car. Not being an engineer I'm not sure why you couldn't use the Corvair engines from everything I've heard and from personal knowledge they were very good engines they had a 6 in an 8-cylinder I don't know if they went any further either way either at 4 or 10 cylinder I don't think so. The point being is if you can do it on one car with front or rear wheel drive you can do it on others. And if you can design the rear wheel car with everything you mentioned that would be changed then you can do it to a front-wheel drive.
 

kernals12

Banned
I wasn't specifically talking about changing the Corvair to a front wheel drive car. What I was implying was that GM knew how to make cars with the engine and transmission together at one end of the car versus strung-out through the car. Not being an engineer I'm not sure why you couldn't use the Corvair engines from everything I've heard and from personal knowledge they were very good engines they had a 6 in an 8-cylinder I don't know if they went any further either way either at 4 or 10 cylinder I don't think so. The point being is if you can do it on one car with front or rear wheel drive you can do it on others. And if you can design the rear wheel car with everything you mentioned that would be changed then you can do it to a front-wheel drive.
As it turns out, GM did toy with this
A ten cylinder Corvair engine installed in a FWD ’62 Impala? How’s that to get the juices of a hard-core Corvair air-head going?

One of the highlights for me of the recent Detroit trip was the little museum in Ypsilanti, in a former Hudson dealership. It was small, but a welcome reprive from the mega-scale of the greenfield Village and HF Museum. Here we could get intimate with the displays, and there were some gems, including a few Corvairs. And there was this modular Corvair engine display, including two actual six cylinder engines and info on the program. It was mostly new to me.





Here’s the basic info. In 1961, the Corvair was still deemed to play a significant long-term role within Chevrolet, so a development program on a gen2 modular engine was undertaken. The actual Corvair had a single alloy cylinder head on each bank of individual cast-iron cylinder barrels.



The mod engine used individual cylinder-head units, cast as a single unit, eliminating the head gasket altogether. There was no info, but presumably there was a cast-iron liner in the cylinder for wear, as the Nikasil system developed for the Vega presumably was still a distant (bad) dream.



Here’s a look at one of the engines on display. The cooling shroud has been cut away on this side to clearly show the cylinders.



Here’s the other side, with its individual valve covers and log intake manifold.



The bottom of the cylinder has a large rectangular base, which is bolted to the crankcase.



The view from underneath shows that each cylinder has its own integral pushrod case, rather than the leak-prone tubes in the production Corvair engine.





The real key difference of course is that it was designed to be modular, and everything from two to twelve cylinder versions were designed, although the eight and twelve cylinder versions were not actually built.





The four cylinder version was of particular interest to Chevrolet.



It was used in FWD prototype small cars, a configuration that was of course also used by Citroen (GS) and VW in Brazil (Gol).



I showed this image at the top, but it’s worth contemplating a 10 cylinder air-cooled FWD Chevrolet Impala again. Or maybe it shouldn’t ever have been contemplated. The text said that this powertain led directly to the Olds Toronado, but it’s well known that Olds had been experimenting with FWD cars from the late 50s, and gave serious thought to building a FWD car in about 1961 or so.



The proposed engine was for a 1964 introduction, but the expense in re-tooling was obviously not justifiable. And GM was moving towards a more conventional RWD approach with its small car development program that would eventually lead to the Vega, which had a very different type of engine. But if you’ve ever wondered why the Vega did have an aluminum block, it was largely to keep GM’s Tonawanda aluminum foundry going, after a huge investment for the original Corvair engine.



What might have been…which pretty much sums up the Corvair program.
 
kernals12,

What a fabulous find!

I bought a 1961 Corvair Lakewood 535 four speed station wagon as our second new car ($2200 and trade in). Drove it until it developed a main bearing knock at about 120,000 miles, then used SAE 60 aircraft oil to keep going till one of my draftsmen talked me out of it. Years later found a 1965 coupe and ran it till a structural failure around the front doors (unprotected interior of posts dissolved in New Jersey weather) made junking it necessary.

I knew nothing of the integral cylinder engine detailed in your post and am still trying to figure out where the exhaust valve is located. Suspect there is yet another later iteration of the flat aircooled six.

Imagine the following: die cast three cylinder modules including crankcase half- split on vertical centerline, with integral air cooled cylinders (no idea if lined or high silicon alloy like Vega). Crankshaft, rod & piston assy would be set up between casting halves, then heads on each side,with thru rods from head to head to clamp everything together. Valve action via cam driven by timing belt on each head. Vaneaxial cooling fans were located in the two outlet ducts, driven by a V belt operating in a single plane. There were two proposed flow controls- temperature sensitive Bellville (conic) washers which allowed fan speed to vary directly with temperature or thermostatic modulating doors ahead of the fans. No pushrod tubes to leak.and way simpler, tho less versatile, than the modular cylinder approach.

Customer for the fan design and prototypes was a Detroit engineering job shop that I had dealt with in the past. They said the program was for an American Motors military application and I had to execute the usual non-disclosure paperwork, but it was obvious it was Corvair related.

Dynasoar
 
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Interesting aspect of front wheel drive in USA was the emergence of Walter Christie (of high speed tank fame) race cars in 1904, first with crosswise four cylinder (MiniCooperlike juggernauts), then even larger V-4 engines. I have a later picture of Barney Oldfield in a more rational longitudinal engine variant setting a dirt track record in 1913. (Will forward when able).

About ten years later race car builder Harry Miller had Leo Goossens design a FWD Indianapolis Speedway race car which set the standard for winners (or at least serious entries) thru 1949, with front drive qualifying attempts as late as the mid sixties. During the late 'twenties, FWD race cars lapped steeply banked board tracks at near 150 MPH (Indianapolis lap record less than 120).

Pictures to come.

Dynasoar
 
Here is Barney in a 1913 Walter Christie front drive on some forgotten dirt track. Front drive race cars appeared at Indianapolis about 10 years later. The last one to attempt qualification was entered by Mickey Thompson fifty years later and was timed at over 153 MPH- sadly, too slow. Interestingly, except for wider tires and a roll bar on the later entry, the cars looked very similar.

Dynasoar
 

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