Susano
Banned
The claim that people in the middle ages couldnt identify themselves as German, French, etc. is simply ludicrous. The concept itself existed - IBC named Ottokar, and John Frederick I of Saxony in the Schmalkaldic War refused to be ceremonially captured by anybody else than a German. And the Hansa, that was in the beginning (before it became a cities league) just the collection of German (sans the Low Countries) traders, with "Hansa" itself indeed being a generic term and that particular hansa being the German Hansa. Or damn, early medieval Germany, where identities werent (yet) about being German, but about being Frankish or Saxon. Likewise, of course, in England Normann and Saxon. And Machiavellis The Prince is of course full of Italian Nationalism.
Trying to seperate "tribalism" from national identity is absurd, because its a gradual thing. For example, in ancient times, we call the single Celtic and Germanic peoples "tribes", yet they already were so large that not everybody knew everybody - which, as you claim, identifies tribes. So, instead we would have to qualify them as nations, and I would argue they were - its people surely did have a great sense of identity of who they were. (Same of course with Republican Rome, the great rhethorical speeches of that time were full of calling upon Roman identity, for another example of early national identuty). Its just that when those "tribes" settled down and started forming lasting realms that the focus shifted from "tribal"-based realms (of the Visigoths, Ostrogoths, Franks, Saxons, Bayuvarians, Thuringians, Langobards...) to dynastical realms.
Thus, the rise of political nationalism during the French Revolution was a return to normalcy, even, with that dynasty-based intermezzo being just that, an intermezzo.
Trying to seperate "tribalism" from national identity is absurd, because its a gradual thing. For example, in ancient times, we call the single Celtic and Germanic peoples "tribes", yet they already were so large that not everybody knew everybody - which, as you claim, identifies tribes. So, instead we would have to qualify them as nations, and I would argue they were - its people surely did have a great sense of identity of who they were. (Same of course with Republican Rome, the great rhethorical speeches of that time were full of calling upon Roman identity, for another example of early national identuty). Its just that when those "tribes" settled down and started forming lasting realms that the focus shifted from "tribal"-based realms (of the Visigoths, Ostrogoths, Franks, Saxons, Bayuvarians, Thuringians, Langobards...) to dynastical realms.
Thus, the rise of political nationalism during the French Revolution was a return to normalcy, even, with that dynasty-based intermezzo being just that, an intermezzo.