Earlier Reichsdeputationshauptschluss?

Would it be possible for an earlier Reichsdeputationshauptschluss in history. Frederick the Great considered a lot throughout his reign and so did Joseph II. Would it be plausible for it to happen earlier and how?
 
If memory serves right, an early eighteenth century proposal by Charles VII (the Wittelsbach Emperor) had making ecclesial states directly ruled by the Emperor. This would greatly expand the power of the Emperor and may result in the smaller states ganging up on him. Here's a map of the ecclesial territories at the time:

533px-Holy_Roman_Empire_1648_Ecclesiastical.png
 
If memory serves right, an early eighteenth century proposal by Charles VII (the Wittelsbach Emperor) had making ecclesial states directly ruled by the Emperor. This would greatly expand the power of the Emperor and may result in the smaller states ganging up on him. Here's a map of the ecclesial territories at the time:

533px-Holy_Roman_Empire_1648_Ecclesiastical.png
Yes I read about that. He thought of it with Frederick the Great who hated the Bishoprics and wanted them dissolved. Would it be a realistic scenario though that had a chance of happening?
 

Philip

Donor
Would it be a realistic scenario though that had a chance of happening?

Yes, if Charles and friends win the War of the Austrian Succession. This requires Charles to live longer. Charles and Frederick as the Catholic and Protestant leaders of the HRE have the influence pull this off. Some of the other states would have to receive smaller bishoprics to ensure their cooperation. France, as a principle ally in WotAS will want a piece of the pie as well.
 
France, as a principle ally in WotAS will want a piece of the pie as well.
Would the maybe receive the Austrian Netherlands, or Briesgau? And what if Charles dies in TTL, would his son be able to pursue what his father wished to happen, and would other European powers cooperate?
 
With a very early POD, you could have the 30HYW end up with either side winning decisively, the existence of ecclesiastical land wouldn't be as convenient for either side if they find themselves in a dominant position.
 

Philip

Donor
And what if Charles dies in TTL, would his son be able to pursue what his father wished to happen, and would other European powers cooperate?

In theory, yes. Max was only 18ish when Charles died, so i don't know how well he will be able to enforce his will to keep Frederick from taking more.

He did make peace with Austria rather quickly. An unlikely victory at the Battle of Pfaffenhofen might help there.

Would the maybe receive the Austrian Netherlands, or Briesgau?

Not sure. I was thinking the Bishopric of Liege with maybe (part of) the Austrian Netherlands. I suppose it depends on how total the victory is.

I'd like to see the Dutch get the Bishopric of Münster, but they'd be on the wrong side in this scenario.
 
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Yes, if Charles and friends win the War of the Austrian Succession. This requires Charles to live longer. Charles and Frederick as the Catholic and Protestant leaders of the HRE have the influence pull this off. Some of the other states would have to receive smaller bishoprics to ensure their cooperation. France, as a principle ally in WotAS will want a piece of the pie as well.

Austrian Netherlands should do pretty nicely. Only reason they didn’t take IOTL was due to Louis XV’s miscalculations anyway. He thought taking it would earn him an eternal British rival, even though he had it anyway regardless of whether he seized it. Also something about not wanting to barter like “a merchant” and to appear magnanimous, but it was really a bad move.
 
What would the Empire look like, I’m assuming the emperor will have way more power TTL than OTL.
 

Philip

Donor
What would the Empire look like, I’m assuming the emperor will have way more power TTL than OTL.

The emperor would hold more power but would be at least partially balanced by Prussia. One or two other states might arise as superstates (within the Empire) depending on how the lands are distributed. Maybe you could arrange for some kind of triumvirate?
 
The emperor would hold more power but would be at least partially balanced by Prussia. One or two other states might arise as superstates (within the Empire) depending on how the lands are distributed. Maybe you could arrange for some kind of triumvirate?
Maybe. Do you think that people would turn on the Habsburgs once they were promised significant territory. Like what if Savoy was promised all of Milan, or Saxony was promised some secularized lands, etc?
 

Philip

Donor
Sardinia/Savoy and Saxony started the war aligned with Prussia, France, and Bavaria. It would probably be better to keep them on board from the start. A better performance by the Bavarians in the early stages and/or Hungary remaining on the sidelines should be enough to keep the alliance together. Probably easier said than done.
 
Sardinia/Savoy and Saxony started the war aligned with Prussia, France, and Bavaria. It would probably be better to keep them on board from the start. A better performance by the Bavarians in the early stages and/or Hungary remaining on the sidelines should be enough to keep the alliance together. Probably easier said than done.
But if Savoy couldn’t be kept on board would the young son of Charles VII, Maximillian be able to bring them to his side when their promised the Duchy of Milan and maybe Mantua too. They were nuts for that territory for the longest time. And if George II was offered more land for Hanover and maybe have Hanover elevated to a Kingdom, would he switch sides, and if so how would that work with Parliament and everything?
 
Sardinia was being coy, because they had to be coy - their position was delicate and required careful diplomacy. But despite his occasional flirtations with Paris and Madrid, I doubt that Charles Emmanuel ever seriously considered siding with the Bourbons, because it would have created an intolerable strategic position in which Spain gained total dominion over Italy, leaving Piedmont unable to benefit from holding the balance between Spain and Austria in Italy.

Just as important is that while France was always willing to make concessions in Italy to win over Sardinia, Spain initially refused to even consider it. Cardinal Fleury proposed early on that Sardinia cede Savoy to France in exchange for part of the Milanese, while Spain would take the rest, a proposal which was not received well in Turin. But it scarcely mattered, because the attitude of Philip and Elisabeth Farnese at the start of the war was that Sardinia could either meekly accept their invasion of Austrian Italy, or get flattened: they’d get nothing and like it (“I will not make war for the King of Sardinia,” as King Philip said). As Elisabeth hoped to acquired the Milanese for Don Philip (along with Parma), she absolutely did not want to hand it over to the Sardinians, and the Spanish “evolved” on this position only after Sardinia joined the Austrian forces and continued setbacks demonstrated to the Spanish that wooing Sardinia might be advisable (although the French always remained more committed to securing Sardinia’s cooperation than the Spanish).

Sardinia was offered some pretty sweet deals by the Bourbons later in the war, particularly when d’Argenson was negotiating for the French, but nevertheless was not tempted. One proposal was that Sardinia (the island) be ceded to Don Philip while Charles Emmanuel would gain the Milanese and keep his royal rank by becoming “King of Lombardy;” another proposal by Louis XV involved the cession of Savoy and Nice to Don Philip, with Charles Emmanuel presumably getting most or all of the Milanese in return. But the Sardinians suspected, for good reason, that the Spanish would not abide by these French promises, and they feigned interest only long enough for Austrian troops to return from Silesia in 1746, whereupon Sardinia immediately rejoined the war against the Bourbons and drove them out of Italy.

The only way I can see to get Sardinia into a neutral stance from the start is to have the Austrians collapse so quickly and utterly in 1741 that standing with them in Italy appears suicidal. Charles Emmanuel is not stupid and will not side with an obvious loser. But if this happens, then Spain has no reason to offer the Milanese (or anything else) to Sardinia, so they get nothing out of the war.

As for Britain, siding with the Bourbons seems quite impossible to me. Britain and Spain were already at war, and both the British and French expected that their countries would be at war any day now, not exactly a conducive situation for the forging of an alliance against Austria which Britain really had no reason to entertain. The British people, and Parliament, already suspected George of favoring Hanover over Britain (which was arguably true); if he proposed to betray Britain’s continental ally Austria and side with the Bourbons in exchange for some additions to Hanover, heads would explode around the kingdom. Realistically, the most one could hope for with Britain is for Walpole to remain in power longer, avoiding Carteret’s more belligerent tenure, but even Walpole’s government voted to give generous subsidies to Maria Theresa.

I can see two possible ways to achieve a Bavarian victory in the war. Option one is a complete Austrian collapse in 1741-42 in which the Nymphenburg terms are carried out (or something like them); this probably requires either some really idiotic blundering on the part of Austrian commanders (that is, much more idiotic than usual), or some sort of attitude adjustment on the part of Maria Theresa or Frederick. I doubt much can be expected of the Bavarians, who were rather shit and little more than French auxiliaries anyway. Option two is averting Max’s defection and peace with Austria in 1745, which requires either the slightly later death of Charles Albert (a few more months might do it) or swifter action by the French, who were stymied by Louis XV getting smallpox and Noailles deciding to besiege Freiburg im Breisgau instead of pursuing the retreating Austrians for some dumb reason. If the French move promptly to occupy Bavaria with a large force in early 1745, Pfaffenhofen is averted, Max may be convinced to maintain his father’s claim to the empire, and since France’s original war plans for 1745 were to prioritize Germany over all other fronts Maria Theresa is going to have her hands full trying to fight both Louis and Frederick at the same time.
 
If the French move promptly to occupy Bavaria with a large force in early 1745, Pfaffenhofen is averted, Max may be convinced to maintain his father’s claim to the empire, and since France’s original war plans for 1745 were to prioritize Germany over all other fronts Maria Theresa is going to have her hands full trying to fight both Louis and Frederick at the same time.
So if the French stick to their plan Maximillian may be elected Emperor and with the Prussians Austria could be invaded?

And I also read that the Bishoprics got wind of Frederick the Greats and Charles VII’s proposal to split the Bishoprics between the three and vowed to raise and army. While Bavaria, France, and Prussia fight Austria, would it be possible to fight the Bishops Army at the same time and would they be able to win the war all together?
 
So if the French stick to their plan Maximillian may be elected Emperor and with the Prussians Austria could be invaded?

Possibly. Evidently the French commanders were not very enthusiastic about further intervention in Germany, considering their earlier drubbing in Bohemia and the fact that their “ally” Frederick had already betrayed them once before. One must also consider that by this time the war had been ongoing for four years and the French economy was already groaning under the strain. D’Argenson, however - the new French foreign minister and for all intents and purposes the director of French war policy at this time - was enthusiastically for the German campaign and adamant that the Austrians had to be denied the imperial crown at all costs. For the moment he’ll be able to get what he wants, but his time is not unlimited. D’Argenson declared furiously that France would fight for 30 years (or was it 40? I can’t remember) rather than see Francis of Lorraine elected, but they’ve got another 3 or 4 years tops before the country is simply too exhausted to continue.

The main problem with getting Max to be emperor is going to be lining up the electors. Britain, Austria, and Saxony are allied against him, so that’s three lost votes right there. His own family is good for three (himself and his Wittelsbach relatives in the Palatinate and Cologne), and Frederick will give him Brandenburg’s vote. That leaves Trier and Mainz, whose bishops were only reluctantly pulled into voting for Charles Albert in 1742 and sided with Francis Stephen IOTL in 1745. I really know very little about the ecclesiastical lands proposal you’ve mentioned, but if the bishops were aware of such a land grab against them then it makes it even harder to believe that they’d support Max in 45. That leaves Max one vote short and may put the college in deadlock until the war is resolved or some elector gets flipped one way or another. D’Argenson tried to stall for time by proposing that Augustus of Saxony and Poland stand for election, but as Augustus was an Austrian ally this could only ever be a temporary obfuscation to try and keep Francis Stephen from a majority.

And I also read that the Bishoprics got wind of Frederick the Greats and Charles VII’s proposal to split the Bishoprics between the three and vowed to raise and army. While Bavaria, France, and Prussia fight Austria, would it be possible to fight the Bishops Army at the same time and would they be able to win the war all together?

The “bishops’ army,” if such a thing existed, would in all probability be a laughingstock. The Reichsarmee was a sad and poorly organized affair, whose contingents were small and frequently suitable only for parade and garrison duty, if that. Trier, an electoral archbishopric, managed to field a single regiment of just over a thousand men in the SYW which was said to be of poor quality. Mainz did significantly better, fielding some 5k men, but a good deal of those were raised in the 1750s and I’m uncertain how numerous they could have been in the WotAS. Furthermore, both of these states are uncomfortably close to France and “behind enemy lines,” so to speak, thus running the chance of getting plundered and burned by angry Frenchmen if they should openly fight alongside Austria. The idea that the other bishops of the empire and their small contingents of ill-prepared men spread across Germany would somehow unite and create a cohesive military force that could meaningfully contribute to the war seems very doubtful to me.
 
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