Earlier Nationalism

Could Nationalism have developed earlier than the 18th century? Like say, early 17th century? If so, what would be the effects of nationalism sweeping Europe before the 30 years war?
 

Valdemar II

Banned
Could Nationalism have developed earlier than the 18th century? Like say, early 17th century? If so, what would be the effects of nationalism sweeping Europe before the 30 years war?

Modern nationalism, pre-modern nationalism was already around, but I don't see it happen, nationalism was both a effect of and countereffect to the Enlightenment, and was only possible because of the changes in socity, with growing cities, a growing middleclass, the destruction of feudal structures, growth in education. Modern nationalism would be as anarchonistic in the 17th century, as marxism or liberitarianism.
 
Modern nationalism, pre-modern nationalism was already around, but I don't see it happen, nationalism was both a effect of and countereffect to the Enlightenment, and was only possible because of the changes in socity, with growing cities, a growing middleclass, the destruction of feudal structures, growth in education. Modern nationalism would be as anarchonistic in the 17th century, as marxism or liberitarianism.

I'm still not entirely sure what nationalism is, and why we don't think the, say, Dutch or English had it.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
I'm still not entirely sure what nationalism is, and why we don't think the, say, Dutch or English had it.

Nationalism is the belief that a group you belong to is one people, and that concept has existed always. Modern nationalism is the idea that a people need to live in the same polit, and that's a rather new idea.
 
Surely, nationalism has existed ever since nations have? It's simply an extrapolation of tribal loyalties into larger entities.
 
The French Revolution and the Napoleonic Wars is really what brought nationalism into being, in a modern sense at least.

France united under one banner to defeat the foreign enemies for their country, and didn't squabble too much over things like mass conscription and war taxes because it was for the country.

First war in which conscript troops were actually fairly effective. :p
 
Anyone want to propose a definition for Nationalism? or for that matter define what a Nation is?

Here are a few that I can think of:
Nationalism in reference to duty to a higher ideal than community ties or family relationships. The idea of Nation as a set of laws that guide you rather than a feudal idea of the strongest over everyone else. Essentially having nationalism fit a legal definition. Yet duty to ones country has motivated many to fight there are tons of other reasons to fight, even after nationalism really took the forefront. I think the main example of this is Constitutionalism.

Nationalism as the idea of a cultural or ethnographic entity. "We all speak the same language and are the same race so we should join up." This is historically common and fits along with historical ideas of racialism.

Nationalism could easily be applied to premodern situations, as a simple pride or chavinistic feeling. But the idea breaks down because of the scale at which the feeling was felt. Societies were simply smaller back then. In way Nationalism I think predates the Nation.
 
The French Revolution and the Napoleonic Wars is really what brought nationalism into being, in a modern sense at least.

France united under one banner to defeat the foreign enemies for their country, and didn't squabble too much over things like mass conscription and war taxes because it was for the country.

First war in which conscript troops were actually fairly effective. :p

It did play a big role in spparking the flames on many nationalisms (French, German, Italian, and Spanish, mainly. Not really Russia, which began to develop intellectual nationalism later because of its slower socioeconomic development, evene though it did provide Russian nationalism with its great myth), but that really just illustrates what people have been saying about nationalism in the modern sense (whatever that is) was an outgrowth of social changes which only outgrew in the late 18th century for the earliest examples.
 
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