Earlier more effective ROA

[Kongzilla]

I was just wondering if it's possible to have a more effective way of using the russian soldiers that sided with the Axis.

I was thinking Goring takes control and on a tour of the Eastern front has a conversation with a soldier and really likes him and his hate of the Bolsheviks, turns out the trooper is Russian and it completely changes his point of view, he thinks maybe I can use the Russian people.

Bit of handwavium there but who knows, he wasn't so big on the Holocaust maybe he could spare the Russians if he thought they could be a valuable tool in defeating the Soviets.

But not just the Russians also the Balkans people, if he sees them cheer him as a liberator he could want to help them and what not. I dunno. What do you think.

 

[TxCoatl1970]

This is a "WI the Nazis weren't stupid/insane" question.
You (and millions of other people into AH) think, the Nazis did so much under Insane management, why wouldn't some attacks of sanity make it go so much further?

See above. Their insanity shoots them in the foot, or in this case, pointed a twelve-gauge at their midriff and pulled the trigger on winning the Eastern Front.
IOTL Wilhelm Canaris heartily recommended the exact thing you did and it went nowhere, b/c Hitler didn't want to owe anything to Slavic untermenschen in defeating the Communist menace.

Goering had a bit more clout than Canaris and wasn't as rabid about the racial profiling as say Himmler, but he'd have had an uphill battle trying to get more than a token force put together out of the 3 million or so Soviet POWs.
One, it would outnumber the Waffen SS by a considerable amount and seriously threaten the Wehrmacht if adequately armed and supplied.
Himmler, the OKW, and other bigwigs would freak if Goering had a private army that big.

That answer your question?

 

[Kongzilla]

Can they be allowed to join the Heer and Waffen-SS. I was kind of hoping a civil war could break out if the russian people were treated well enough by the Germans.

 

[Life In Black]

This is a "WI the Nazis weren't stupid/insane" question.
You (and millions of other people into AH) think, the Nazis did so much under Insane management, why wouldn't some attacks of sanity make it go so much further?

See above. Their insanity shoots them in the foot, or in this case, pointed a twelve-gauge at their midriff and pulled the trigger on winning the Eastern Front.
IOTL Wilhelm Canaris heartily recommended the exact thing you did and it went nowhere, b/c Hitler didn't want to owe anything to Slavic untermenschen in defeating the Communist menace.

Goering had a bit more clout than Canaris and wasn't as rabid about the racial profiling as say Himmler, but he'd have had an uphill battle trying to get more than a token force put together out of the 3 million or so Soviet POWs.
One, it would outnumber the Waffen SS by a considerable amount and seriously threaten the Wehrmacht if adequately armed and supplied.
Himmler, the OKW, and other bigwigs would freak if Goering had a private army that big.

That answer your question?

Exactly. Göring harbored a bit of a grudge against Himmler after having had to hand over control of the Gestapo to Himmler, which was why Göring was allowed to have his own parachute panzer division, as a means of appeasement.

Can they be allowed to join the Heer and Waffen-SS. I was kind of hoping a civil war could break out if the russian people were treated well enough by the Germans.

Sure, but you can bet that both of them in '41 and '42 will be implementing strict quota limits, much like the number of Ukrainians that joined the Waffen-SS in OTL. Foreign recruitment in Eastern Europe really didn't take off until '43, which is when Himmler and the Whermacht ended up in a bigger dick contest over control of foreign volunteers. Essentially, you'd need someone with a more rational and sane approach to have Hitler's ear. Or perhaps a more ruthless approach, say Heydrich persuades Hitler to allow these "Untermensch" to die for the Fatherland so that Germans don't have to.

 

[Kongzilla]

What if Hitler is Dead, Can Heydrich have Gorings ear perhaps. Hitler Dies around the Start of Barbarossa so what happens with that.

Can Heydrich perhaps be the Fuhrer

 

[Life In Black]

What if Hitler is Dead, Can Heydrich have Gorings ear perhaps. Hitler Dies around the Start of Barbarossa so what happens with that.

Can Heydrich perhaps be the Fuhrer

Honestly, I think the only one who enjoyed support from both the Waffen-SS and the Wehrmacht was Ribbentrop, so perhaps some sort of POD which allows him to take power after the start of Barbarossa. Although that's probably ASB. In order for Heydrich to have that kind of power, you'd need a POD much earlier, so as to make him a special liaison to the Wehrmacht, rather than his role OTL. Which is less ASB than having Ribbentrop end up in power, but not by much.

 

[Kongzilla]

If Goring was to become Fuhrer can the Waffen-SS become an elite fighting force instead of a massive military machine it become post '43.

So the Heer gets most of the Recruits but the Waffen-SS becomes a Nazi German analogue to the French Foreign Legion and the Third Reichs Propaganda force compromised of only troops that meet the strict racial guidelines set in place.

Inspired by some of his success can Goring get Heydrich to take advantage of any unused industry in france and everywhere else as well as get the Balkan peoples and Russians/Ukrainians on the Side of the Reich. With a Carrot and Stick approach as well. But can it be done in 41 when most of the people still liked the Germans.

 

[Life In Black]

If Goring was to become Fuhrer can the Waffen-SS become an elite fighting force instead of a massive military machine it become post '43.

So the Heer gets most of the Recruits but the Waffen-SS becomes a Nazi German analogue to the French Foreign Legion and the Third Reichs Propaganda force compromised of only troops that meet the strict racial guidelines set in place.

Inspired by some of his success can Goring get Heydrich to take advantage of any unused industry in france and everywhere else as well as get the Balkan peoples and Russians/Ukrainians on the Side of the Reich. With a Carrot and Stick approach as well. But can it be done in 41 when most of the people still liked the Germans.

In order to do that, you'd have to limit the Waffen-SS to no more than a couple of divisions so as to not let it become too bloated. The big problem is getting the players in place in time for Barbarossa/'41. I don't really see Heydrich and Göring working together, as Heydrich wouldn't take him seriously as leader and Göring would see him as a threat. Better to elevate Ribbentrop to head of the SS instead.

 

[Kongzilla]

Maybe Goring sees placing Heydrich in charge of getting the industry running and have partisans fight for Germany rather then against them diverts his attention away from being a threat.

Can there be semi strict rules for joining the the ROA. Like to ensure loyalty, they must have volunteered or deserted to the ROA without being held at gun point or would that limit the amount of volunteers.

Would the armies of the Balkans people be incorporated into the Heer or be an Autonomous entity like the Italian army.

 

[Life In Black]

Maybe Goring sees placing Heydrich in charge of getting the industry running and have partisans fight for Germany rather then against them diverts his attention away from being a threat.

Can there be semi strict rules for joining the the ROA. Like to ensure loyalty, they must have volunteered or deserted to the ROA without being held at gun point or would that limit the amount of volunteers.

Would the armies of the Balkans people be incorporated into the Heer or be an Autonomous entity like the Italian army.

I personally would have it set up so that the ROA units would be formed first, with soldiers/units that perform well in combat and distinguish themselves being admitted into the Wehrmacht or Waffen-SS. It ensures that there's friendly competition all the way around. Heydrich in charge of industry, might not be such a good idea. He's liable to cause a revolt among the slave labour being used. Honestly, I'd put him under Schellenberg, or perhaps as a liaison with the Abwehr, so that his penchant for keeping tabs on people and keeping files on top officials is put to good use.

 

[Kongzilla]

How about this for POD.

After the untimely death of Adolf Hitler in 1941, just days after the launch of Operation Barbarossa Hermann Goring took the title of Fuhrer. He decided that due to the death of the of Hitler morale on the Eastern front would be low and even the terrific advance of Axis forces against the Red Army would not be enough to stop horrendous morale loss.

As Goring toured the front he was amazed by the welcome he received by the Balkans people. He was impressed by the fact they so readily accepted the germans and disposed of the Bolshevik presence. What finally changed his views of the Slavic people was yet to come though.

2 weeks later when he was on the final stage of his tour Goring came under fire from Red Army Partisans that had become trapped behind enemy lines. Though the Partisans had the element of surprise they were eventually beaten off. Several of his escort had been injured in the firefight and several more killed yet Goring remained relatively unscathed. Goring awarded every single man in his escort the (a good medal) and visited the unit. What surprised Goring was that one of the Men was a russian who ha joined up with the Wehrmacht. After several hours of talking Goring had a revelation. This soldier was proof that even the Slavs could be Utilized in a war with the Bolsheviks.

Everything else kinda just falls in place from there. Creation of the ROA and what not.

 

[Life In Black]

How about this for POD.

After the untimely death of Adolf Hitler in 1941, just days after the launch of Operation Barbarossa Hermann Goring took the title of Fuhrer. He decided that due to the death of the of Hitler morale on the Eastern front would be low and even the terrific advance of Axis forces against the Red Army would not be enough to stop horrendous morale loss.

As Goring toured the front he was amazed by the welcome he received by the Balkans people. He was impressed by the fact they so readily accepted the germans and disposed of the Bolshevik presence. What finally changed his views of the Slavic people was yet to come though.

2 weeks later when he was on the final stage of his tour Goring came under fire from Red Army Partisans that had become trapped behind enemy lines. Though the Partisans had the element of surprise they were eventually beaten off. Several of his escort had been injured in the firefight and several more killed yet Goring remained relatively unscathed. Goring awarded every single man in his escort the (a good medal) and visited the unit. What surprised Goring was that one of the Men was a russian who ha joined up with the Wehrmacht. After several hours of talking Goring had a revelation. This soldier was proof that even the Slavs could be Utilized in a war with the Bolsheviks.

Everything else kinda just falls in place from there. Creation of the ROA and what not.

You'd still have to get rid of Himmler too, or perhaps have Himmler fall out of favor. That and you'd had better hope that suddenly becoming Führer causes Göring to kick his morphine habit.

 

[Kongzilla]

He could make a bit of a blunder causing the loss of a thousand german soldiers due to him being under and there is no one to blame but himself. Even for a Nazi that would make you think.

Or we could have him simply decide that if he is to lead germany to greatness he must give up the habit. It's not that far fetched.

Can we still keep Himmler. But sort of neuter him. Have him be a representative in China but still have him in Control of the SS.

How many units could the ROA get together if they are well treated and supplied. And what units would they be made into. I was thinking infantry divisions with a more defensive focus (Axis is in a defensive stance so they don't need as many soldiers in the east). Would they also maybe be formed into an armoured company using captured ruskie tanks.

 

[Life In Black]

He could make a bit of a blunder causing the loss of a thousand german soldiers due to him being under and there is no one to blame but himself. Even for a Nazi that would make you think.

Or we could have him simply decide that if he is to lead germany to greatness he must give up the habit. It's not that far fetched.

Can we still keep Himmler. But sort of neuter him. Have him be a representative in China but still have him in Control of the SS.

How many units could the ROA get together if they are well treated and supplied. And what units would they be made into. I was thinking infantry divisions with a more defensive focus (Axis is in a defensive stance so they don't need as many soldiers in the east). Would they also maybe be formed into an armoured company using captured ruskie tanks.

Himmler isn't gong to allow himself to be shuttled off to China. While he doesn't have the clout at this point to really stage a coup, and Hess is already gone, Himmler would simply dig his heels into the ground and refuse to budge. Perhaps Heydrich could be persuaded to take out Himmler, but again, that's approaching ASB territory. If Hitler and Himmler could be removed at once, have Göring take over and appoint Ribbentrop as head of the SS, with Heydrich subordinated to Schellenberg, and you shouldn't have any trouble with Göring holding onto power assuming he doesn't fuck up. Convincing him to allow Slavs to serve isn't even that difficult, as many Eastern Europeans welcomed the Germans with open arms at first. You'd have to curtail if not stop altogether the holocaust and devote those resources into the war effort though, which may involve releasing the concentration camp inmates and trying to put them to work. As for how many divisions could be formed, not too many. Probably only around two, possibly three by the end of '41, as these Russians would need to be vetted, formed into units and trained and equipped. Germany didn't have enough resources to properly equip its own units, so don't count on much in the way of armour for the KOA, aside form possibly some outdated French tanks and older models that might be given to form an armoured company or two within each division. Of the armoured vehicles captured in Russia, almost all of it was put back into use by the Germans, with BT-2/7 tanks ending up as fortifications and their turrets being used to guard trains. T-34s were pressed into service, with sometimes whole company's (including at one point a company in the 2nd Waffen-SS division "Das Reich", to be equipped with them. There were even workshops set up to service them not too far from the front. So don't count on the KOA riding in to save the day with T-34s, as the Germans would be keeping that stuff for themselves. If I were you, I'd look for sometime in June/July of '41 where Hitler and Himmler were together near the Eastern Front, and go from there. Really, eliminating those two at the same time is your best bet to fast track an earlier or at least more equipped KOA. In my opinion of course.

 

[Kongzilla]

Ok how about this. The person that Killed Hitler was an SS guy, people are outraged, and Goring knowing this is his chance bullshits some evidence and Hangs Himmlers without a trial.

Stopping the Holocaust wouldn't be that hard. Goring was that big on murdering all the jews. He just wanted them gone. I could see him stopping the Concentration camps and using all the resources in something useful.

Building Material gets used in bunkers or whatever.
The Train Cars and tracks can be used wherever they are needed.
The Guards can be used on the frontline or at least in anti Partisan units.
Non military personnel can be doing what ever they are doing, like administration

Now I'm torn, I'm not exactly sure how much he cared about the jews. Would he simply say get out of Europe Or you'll be shot. So a lot of deportation. Or would he simply use them as slave labour. All though I think he would be pragmatic enough to feed them. Because its better to have a strong worker do 3 days then 3 weak workers do 1. You know what I mean.

EDIT: Also I think he would scour the Concentration camps for anyone useful to the war effort and offer them sanctuary. By Force if need be (insert evil laughter). But if the death of the Fuhrer at the hands of an SS trooper is enough to convince the people Himmler is evil and allows Goring to "remove" him. That could pretty much be the end of the SS all together and I don't want that. I really like the SS and still want them around. They are the Nazis hatred incarnate after all.

 

[Life In Black]

Ok how about this. The person that Killed Hitler was an SS guy, people are outraged, and Goring knowing this is his chance bullshits some evidence and Hangs Himmlers without a trial.

Stopping the Holocaust wouldn't be that hard. Goring was that big on murdering all the jews. He just wanted them gone. I could see him stopping the Concentration camps and using all the resources in something useful.

Building Material gets used in bunkers or whatever.
The Train Cars and tracks can be used wherever they are needed.
The Guards can be used on the frontline or at least in anti Partisan units.
Non military personnel can be doing what ever they are doing, like administration

Now I'm torn, I'm not exactly sure how much he cared about the jews. Would he simply say get out of Europe Or you'll be shot. So a lot of deportation. Or would he simply use them as slave labour. All though I think he would be pragmatic enough to feed them. Because its better to have a strong worker do 3 days then 3 weak workers do 1. You know what I mean.

EDIT: Also I think he would scour the Concentration camps for anyone useful to the war effort and offer them sanctuary. By Force if need be (insert evil laughter). But if the death of the Fuhrer at the hands of an SS trooper is enough to convince the people Himmler is evil and allows Goring to "remove" him. That could pretty much be the end of the SS all together and I don't want that. I really like the SS and still want them around. They are the Nazis hatred incarnate after all.

No SS person would kill Hitler in '41, and blackmail is out as they all pretty much had secrets. How about this as a POD: instead of Göring being forced to hand over control of the Gestapo to Himmler, Hitler decides to put Heydrich in charge of it instead. This gives Göring and Himmler a common enemy, while at the same time removes Heydrich from meddling in the holocaust. With Hitler removed in this scenario, Göring and Himmler would but heads, sure, but they'd be more likely to work together if they're both watching over their shoulders.

 

[Kongzilla]

I'm not very good with Political parts of Alternate history, so I think I might just keep everyone in their jobs until Hitler dies. I might just have Hitler and Himmler be driving together when the car goes over a landmine killing them both.


How many Divisions a year could Germany make from the Russians and even the Baltic people. Are there any White Russian Generals that would have switched to the Germans side.

 

[Life In Black]

I'm not very good with Political parts of Alternate history, so I think I might just keep everyone in their jobs until Hitler dies. I might just have Hitler and Himmler be driving together when the car goes over a landmine killing them both.


How many Divisions a year could Germany make from the Russians and even the Baltic people. Are there any White Russian Generals that would have switched to the Germans side.

It all depends on how long the war drags on, how favorably Germany's image is in Eastern Europe, and how much need there is. And there might have been a few generals, but I'm not sure off hand. I wouldn't put the number of divisions at more than half a dozen, say around two corps strength at maximum.

 

[Kongzilla]

I was hoping the war would drag on until 48.

But if Goring is nice to them right from the start, I could see a lot of the White Emigres returning to fight the soviet union. They seemed like they could really dig that stuff.

But the ROA could just be one branch of the Russians fighting. They could be the german supplied. Maybe the ones they can't supply still fight but used captured weapons etc.

Is the dozen divisions the max due to recruits or due to logistics.

 

[Life In Black]

I was hoping the war would drag on until 48.

But if Goring is nice to them right from the start, I could see a lot of the White Emigres returning to fight the soviet union. They seemed like they could really dig that stuff.

But the ROA could just be one branch of the Russians fighting. They could be the german supplied. Maybe the ones they can't supply still fight but used captured weapons etc.

Is the dozen divisions the max due to recruits or due to logistics.

Both, as well as the fact that the Germans won't want them to be too large because of fears they might turn on the Germans once things are said and done. Expect them to be fed into the meat grinder over and over again no matter how well they're treated. Which is why I suggested having them be allowed to join the Heer or Waffen-SS after distinguishing themselves in combat, so as to give them a sense of belonging and elitism in order to prevent them turning on the Germans after the Soviet Union is crushed or at least stalemated. If the Germans were smart here, they'd also be more friendly towards both their allies and their occupied territories, so as to help ease the strain on logistics. Imagine having the Czechs and French producing armoured vehicles and the Belgians producing small arms throughout the war, without fear that the weapons will be sabotaged. Even then though, they're not going to be able to support a very large KOA, and the tens of thousands of other foreign volunteers as well as their own military. It might look like their were a lot of foreign volunteer formations and units supported by the Germans in OTL, but remember that most of those were way understrength and were mostly "divisions" in name only.