Earlier Final Solution?

[Hnau]

I know this is a horrible subject to discuss, and we're touching on a controversial subject and what-not... but how early could Nazi Germany's Final Solution come about? Could the Holocaust have moved more swiftly to this conclusion, with more repression early on? Could the swift turn of events cause unrest among the populace if genocide began earlier?

I guess what got me thinking about this was Glen's 'The Accident that Changed History'. If you remove the European refugee scientists from the equation, you might be able to offset the development of a nuclear bomb. However, I doubt it could happen fast enough for that. Most nuclear physicists were heading out of the country as soon as Hitler took power.

Nevertheless, the question stands. Could the Final Solution come about earlier, and what would the effects be?

 

[Aberblue]

I know this is a horrible subject to discuss, and we're touching on a controversial subject and what-not... but how early could Nazi Germany's Final Solution come about? Could the Holocaust have moved more swiftly to this conclusion, with more repression early on? Could the swift turn of events cause unrest among the populace if genocide began earlier?

I guess what got me thinking about this was Glen's 'The Accident that Changed History'. If you remove the European refugee scientists from the equation, you might be able to offset the development of a nuclear bomb. However, I doubt it could happen fast enough for that. Most nuclear physicists were heading out of the country as soon as Hitler took power.

Nevertheless, the question stands. Could the Final Solution come about earlier, and what would the effects be?

Even with the Nazis, I can't see there being mass murder without the brutalising effect of war. A "final solution" in 1937 or 1938 is just not feasible IMHO.

 

[Hannibal.Caesar]

I know this is a horrible subject to discuss, and we're touching on a controversial subject and what-not... but how early could Nazi Germany's Final Solution come about? Could the Holocaust have moved more swiftly to this conclusion, with more repression early on? Could the swift turn of events cause unrest among the populace if genocide began earlier?

I guess what got me thinking about this was Glen's 'The Accident that Changed History'. If you remove the European refugee scientists from the equation, you might be able to offset the development of a nuclear bomb. However, I doubt it could happen fast enough for that. Most nuclear physicists were heading out of the country as soon as Hitler took power.

Nevertheless, the question stands. Could the Final Solution come about earlier, and what would the effects be?

IIRC the opening stages of the Final Solution were practiced on the mentally disabled and the infirm in German mental hospitals. There was an effort to murder these so-called "undesirables," but there was a concerted effort by the families of those "undesirables" to move them to safety.

I agree. The Holocaust, particularly a widespread one, would have only been possible during total war.

 

[Hnau]

Well, I mean, what about 1940? Is it possible then, after most of the invasion of France is over?

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

I think it would have been very difficult to get the German population to go along with the Holocaust without war.

I know this is a horrible subject to discuss, and we're touching on a controversial subject and what-not... but how early could Nazi Germany's Final Solution come about? Could the Holocaust have moved more swiftly to this conclusion, with more repression early on? Could the swift turn of events cause unrest among the populace if genocide began earlier?

I guess what got me thinking about this was Glen's 'The Accident that Changed History'. If you remove the European refugee scientists from the equation, you might be able to offset the development of a nuclear bomb. However, I doubt it could happen fast enough for that. Most nuclear physicists were heading out of the country as soon as Hitler took power.

Nevertheless, the question stands. Could the Final Solution come about earlier, and what would the effects be?

 

[Glen]

I know this is a horrible subject to discuss, and we're touching on a controversial subject and what-not... but how early could Nazi Germany's Final Solution come about? Could the Holocaust have moved more swiftly to this conclusion, with more repression early on? Could the swift turn of events cause unrest among the populace if genocide began earlier?

I guess what got me thinking about this was Glen's 'The Accident that Changed History'. If you remove the European refugee scientists from the equation, you might be able to offset the development of a nuclear bomb. However, I doubt it could happen fast enough for that. Most nuclear physicists were heading out of the country as soon as Hitler took power.

Nevertheless, the question stands. Could the Final Solution come about earlier, and what would the effects be?

I think its only likely to happen during war. So how early a Final Solution?

Well, first you need to think how early would even be conceivably possible for a Nazi takeover of Germany....the Beer-Hall Putsch is possible but unlikely, but let's say it goes off. Then you need the Germans to start building up for war. The crash actually might make a good jump off point for the war. Say the Final Solution begins sometime around 1931. Realistically, this is probably the earliest the timeline can be pushed.

Note that most of the scientists will still escape before the trap snaps shut on them.

 

[MrP]

Without the war, the SS was quite committed to shipping all the Jews it could out of the country, to Israel or anywhere else - bizarrely enough for those of us looking back from a post-Wannsee perspective. I also recall Wozza pointing out that there wasn't enough food full stop to keep everyone going. So I'm with AHP here; you need war to get mass murder going. And then it's a horrible situation for everyone.

 

[Glen]

Well, I mean, what about 1940? Is it possible then, after most of the invasion of France is over?

Yes, possible, but the nuclear scientists would have already flown the coup...

 

[torque7844]

Well, I mean, what about 1940? Is it possible then, after most of the invasion of France is over?

While the thread makes me a bit ill to even contemplate, I'll say this much. 1940 isn't possible simply for the fact that the infrastructure has to be built up and up to that point the Nazis have been focused on combat efforts. IIRC the Wannsee Conference wasn't held until very early in 1942 with construction on the first camps having been started in '40 and '41.

 

[a989chris]

The Nazis originally wanted to ship most of the Jews of Europe to Madagascar in a state of isolation. Once this plan proved impossible then mass killings became the widespread decision. One of the main ways of disguising and covering up for the murders was the war on the eastern front. At this point the holocaust was easily shrouded under the term "crusade against the judeo-bolsheviks". Without war, I don't think that the Nazis could have managed such programs without widespread knowledge seeping out and thus condemnation.

 

[CanadianGoose]

Final solution had been started once most of the European Jewry fell under Nazi control, i.e. after occupation of the Ukraine and Belarus. Nazi viewed Jews as cockroaches who will spread to any "clean" territory fast and Hitler had almost phobic fear of them doing it despite Nuremberg Laws and all that jazz. So I don't see FS starting much earlier than it did OTL without other significant changes.

 

[Markus]

Well, I mean, what about 1940? Is it possible then, after most of the invasion of France is over?

It began once Poland fell. Slowly at first, but before 1939 was over at least 7,000 jews were dead.

 

[ninebucks]

Perhaps if the early emphasis is placed firmly on sterilisation as opposed to murder?

 

[Grey Wolf]

The Nazi leaders themselves said that they could not have gone ahead without a war, but being in a war they felt they could do what they wanted as no one could stop them - basically, with no war they still had to worry about things such as sanctions, the threat of war etc. Look at how much difficulty the State Dept's late 1941 tightening of the rules on trade with Axis countries caused to US companies with interests in Germany, and you can see how much room there still would have been in peace for sanctions to bite

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

 

[WhatIsAUserName]

Final solution had been started once most of the European Jewry fell under Nazi control, i.e. after occupation of the Ukraine and Belarus. Nazi viewed Jews as cockroaches who will spread to any "clean" territory fast and Hitler had almost phobic fear of them doing it despite Nuremberg Laws and all that jazz. So I don't see FS starting much earlier than it did OTL without other significant changes.

Really? If I remember correctly, Germany had occupied Ukraine and Belarus before the Final Solution, and it was only the high costs of using the Einsatzgruppen (e.g., ammo costs) to kill Jews, that prompted the Wannsee Conference, to create a more efficient way of exterminating Jews. Of course, I guess it's just as possible for Hitler to order the Final Solution as early as possible.