Earlier Dinosaur Revolution

[legumes]

Deinonychus

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Often known as the "Terrible Claw" and even more often confused for its smaller Mongolian cousin Velociraptor, it was the one to kickstart the Dinosaur Revolution. This saw dinosaurs going from being seen as slow, stupid, lumbering, oversized lizards doomed from the start to complex, active, and successful animals that were dealt a bad hand 65 million years ago. So that raises a question, what if either Deinosychus or something like it was discovered much earlier, say in the 1900s, from about 1905-1913ish? For its benefit, let's say the paleontologists dig up a well-preserved specimen that shows signs of an active lifestyle.

What would be the impact on both the scientific community and on the general public when it is revealed?

 

[bpbruce]

To keep this thread pre-1900, maybe have Huxley or one of the other pioneering comparative anatomists find Deinosychus around 1885-1895. Or one of the US Wild West paleontologists. I don't know if finding a specimen would cause a revolution in itself. The anatomists thought dinosaurs were flopping on the ground like ginko lizards, so if they found a specimen they'd assume a floppy ground-hugging Deinosychus. But if a respected anatomist looked at the joints sooner, and decided these things ran instead of crawling, Comes the Revolution!

 

[oboro]

Velociraptor was discovered in the 1920s - that discovery didn’t lead to a dinosaur renaissance. Maybe if more feathered Dino’s were found earlier, have China be as central then as it is now

 

[coz957]

Well here's an idea.During the 2nd Opium War,Britain sends some troops and a scientist to help the Russians.The scientist stumbles upon a dinosaur find in Manchuria,with feathers. It is sent back to Charles Darwin,who comes to the decision it is from the past and more scientists become interested in this strange half-lizard half-bird.It could be helpful to evolution,and suddenly a whole bunch of scientists go rushing to Manchuria for more.A sort of Chinese Dinosaur Revolution,if you will,This discovery would literally put palaeontology forward at least 50 if not 100 years.

 

[The Professor]

To be fair, early finds were of more bird like dinosaurs. It's only with the discovery of the large ones that people began to conceive of them as lumbering lizards.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

IIRC a lot of why dinosaurs were thought to be "lumbering lizards" had to do with Sir Richard Owen - who reconstructed the Iguanadon as a quadruped similar to a rhinoceros. And Ben Waterhouse built the models that wound up in Crystal Palace Park accordingly. Gideon Mantell (the discoverer of Iguanadon) IIRC originally agreed with Owen's "reconstruction" but later revised his opinion.

Even (ICR if it was Cope/Marsh) in the Bone Wars there were some theories put forward about this (active, agile etc, but one of them's reassembling of an Elasmosaurus fossil with the skull on the tail instead of the neck, undermined this theory). And Louis Dollo reconstructed the Iguanadon skeletons found down the Bernissart mine in 1870s. So, its not impossible that he puts a theory forward which starts paleontology down the road to active/agile/intelligent pre-Deinonychus

 

[legumes]

Ah crap, I accidentally put this in pre-1900, is there a way to fix that?

 

[oshron]

Ah crap, I accidentally put this in pre-1900, is there a way to fix that?

ask a mod to move it

if you really want to look at how an earlier Dinosaur Renaissance could take place, consider Dromaeosaurus instead of Deinonychus, since the original specimen of the former was missing the raptors' iconic sickle-claws--it was originally thought to be a small tyrannosaur because of that.

 

[Mort the Reaper]

It should be noted that Robert Bakker portrayed the ideas of the Dinosaur Renaissance as a rebirth of ideas popular in the late 19th century. For example, the theory that birds were descended from dinosaurs was originally proposed by Thomas Henry Huxley in (IIRC) the 1860s, but was seemingly discredited by Gerhard Heilmann in 1926.

 

[Wowser]

IIRC a lot of why dinosaurs were thought to be "lumbering lizards" had to do with Sir Richard Owen - who reconstructed the Iguanadon as a quadruped similar to a rhinoceros. And Ben Waterhouse built the models that wound up in Crystal Palace Park accordingly. Gideon Mantell (the discoverer of Iguanadon) IIRC originally agreed with Owen's "reconstruction" but later revised his opinion.

Even (ICR if it was Cope/Marsh) in the Bone Wars there were some theories put forward about this (active, agile etc, but one of them's reassembling of an Elasmosaurus fossil with the skull on the tail instead of the neck, undermined this theory). And Louis Dollo reconstructed the Iguanadon skeletons found down the Bernissart mine in 1870s. So, its not impossible that he puts a theory forward which starts paleontology down the road to active/agile/intelligent pre-Deinonychus

Wasn't Owen right? They had to crack fossils in the tail because they were too compressed if the iguanadon was posed in an upright position.

 

[legumes]

Velociraptor was discovered in the 1920s - that discovery didn’t lead to a dinosaur renaissance. Maybe if more feathered Dino’s were found earlier, have China be as central then as it is now

True, but remember a few things.
1. When Velociraptor was discovered alongside Protoceratops, and Oviraptor in the mid-20s the Dino craze that had swept both science and the public was starting to wind down.
2. Utahraptor, Deinonychus, and others were found in the good old US of A, so they are closer to home for study, discovery, and a bit of national pride. Velociraptor was found in far away Mongol-land.
3. Deinonychus was a medium-sized animal, capable of perhaps bringing down a larger beast with wit and numbers. Velociraptor was only about the size of a peacock.
4. By the time Velociraptor was discovered even if people were still interested in dinosaurs, real-world events would soon put a damper on that, and even much of paleontology as a whole. From the great depression, then WW2, near-endless conflicts in Asia and Africa afterward, and the Iron curtain separating the Asain dinosaur from a western perspective. Their kind of is a reason why so many famous dinosaurs came out of America up until fairly recently.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Wasn't Owen right? They had to crack fossils in the tail because they were too compressed if the iguanadon was posed in an upright position.

This was Edouard Riou's depiction of Iguanodon (left) and Megalosaurus (right) based on Owen's descriptions.

Top is Waterhouse's depiction, shown in the Crystal Palace Park sculptures (again, based on Owen's descriptions of it being a heavy, tank-like creature), while bottom is the modern view of the Iguanodon. While Dollo did break the tail to hang the sculpture in the church (the only place available, apparently), his idea (although wrong) was certainly closer to the idea than what Owen had. Even Waterhouse's sketch while looking like a before photo for a weight-loss pill (with the modern reconstruction being after), still looks "far too lizard-like".

Dollo's reconstruction might have been wrong, but comparing Cope's Dryptosaurus (Laelaps) that was discovered a decade previously, and how it was shown "vertical, with a slouched head and useless arms" (and supposedly, Cope theorized, could use its tail to balance on (IIRC) while attacking with its powerful legs) it's not unthinkable that Dollo simply thought - on finding the fossils that this was "definite proof" Iguanodon had walked "upright" as well.

 

[Wowser]

This was Edouard Riou's depiction of Iguanodon (left) and Megalosaurus (right) based on Owen's descriptions.

Top is Waterhouse's depiction, shown in the Crystal Palace Park sculptures (again, based on Owen's descriptions of it being a heavy, tank-like creature), while bottom is the modern view of the Iguanodon. While Dollo did break the tail to hang the sculpture in the church (the only place available, apparently), his idea (although wrong) was certainly closer to the idea than what Owen had. Even Waterhouse's sketch while looking like a before photo for a weight-loss pill (with the modern reconstruction being after), still looks "far too lizard-like".

Dollo's reconstruction might have been wrong, but comparing Cope's Dryptosaurus (Laelaps) that was discovered a decade previously, and how it was shown "vertical, with a slouched head and useless arms" (and supposedly, Cope theorized, could use its tail to balance on (IIRC) while attacking with its powerful legs) it's not unthinkable that Dollo simply thought - on finding the fossils that this was "definite proof" Iguanodon had walked "upright" as well.

 

[Wowser]

Yes, I agree, but my comment was made in the context of quadruped v biped.

 

[legumes]

If nothing else I do think that stop motion animated raptors would be really awesome.

 

[oshron]

If nothing else I do think that stop motion animated raptors would be really awesome.

 

[Mort the Reaper]

Almost makes me wonder what a seventies Jurassic Park might've been like.

 

[Pauh the federalist]

In theory you could kick start this even earlyer by accident through the archeology boom that Europe saw between the mid 1800s through mid 1900s stumbling accross quality specimens that results in a earlyer branching out of the field away from tombs becuse of dinosaurs sharing the spotlight with the Ancient civilizations that dominated early archeology