Earlier Belgium.

Valdemar II

Banned
Pervez post in "Alternate European Colonial Powers" got me thinking (yes I know that's dangerous):

I think that with a post-Columbus POD it would be the Kalmar Union, Denmark-Norway, Sweden, the Southern Netherlands (under Archduke Albert of Austria and the Infanta Isabella), Austria (see the Ostend Company), Turkey (in the Indian Ocean), and Scotland. I am not counting any OTL involvement since none of them were colonial powers.

What if one of Archduke Albert of Austria and the Infanta Isabella sons survived to adulthood. What consequenses would it have with a Independent Hapsburgs Netherland (would likely be called Flandern), and one more Habsburg line. It could help on the inbreeding that there was one more line to marry to, but it could also create Hapsburgs Netherland, which could defend itself better against France and could become a minor colonial power.
 

HJ Tulp

Donor
Pervez post in "Alternate European Colonial Powers" got me thinking (yes I know that's dangerous):



What if one of Archduke Albert of Austria and the Infanta Isabella sons survived to adulthood. What consequenses would it have with a Independent Hapsburgs Netherland (would likely be called Flandern), and one more Habsburg line. It could help on the inbreeding that there was one more line to marry to, but it could also create Hapsburgs Netherland, which could defend itself better against France and could become a minor colonial power.


What is the exact POD? It might actually result in a Dutch Southern Netherlands you know :D
 
What is the exact POD? It might actually result in a Dutch Southern Netherlands you know :D

I'd suppose the POD is one of the sons actually survining, and eventually inheriting the Netherlands.
Spain would be slightly stronger, lacking the huge Flanders ulcer to drain its coffers and armies. A new branch of the Hapsburgs may delay the genetic lottery than destroyed the Spanish branch, or even eliminiate the problem as centuries go on and royal inbreeding becomes less prevalent (the Habsburg family, after all, survives to this day, and aren't particularly prone of genetic illnesses)
Hapsburg Netherlands (I also think than the nation would be called Flanders) would have strong alliances already made, and several of them with french frontiers (and french dislike) to invade should it be necessary. It would be a nation less prone to invassion, but maybe one than stuck its nose on foreign war far more then its OTL equivalents, with the implied chances of losing the war.
 
. (the Habsburg family, after all, survives to this day, and aren't particularly prone of genetic illnesses)

Actually, its the House of Lorraine that survives having co-opted the Habsburg name, but don't tell them that :) !

Like the Romanovs are actually some Germano-Danish ducal line whose name escapes me...

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 

Valdemar II

Banned
Actually, its the House of Lorraine that survives having co-opted the Habsburg name, but don't tell them that :) !

Like the Romanovs are actually some Germano-Danish ducal line whose name escapes me...

Best Regards
Grey Wolf


Oldenburg-Schleswig-Holstein-Gottorp

They also ruled Sweden in the late 18th century.

And Oldenburg proper from 1773-1918
 

Valdemar II

Banned
Pity I felt that this idea had some merit. It could have interesting consequences for both the France and Germany in that periode. Plus it would create a realistic alternative colonistic power.
 
Pity I felt that this idea had some merit. It could have interesting consequences for both the France and Germany in that periode. Plus it would create a realistic alternative colonistic power.

But would Spain allow them having colonies? At that time the Spanish were still trying to impose Tordesillas, and if they had accepted "Belgian" colonies that would mean the old treaty was dead and everybody could get territories in the colonial world.
 

Susano

Banned
Actually, its the House of Lorraine that survives having co-opted the Habsburg name, but don't tell them that :) !

Like the Romanovs are actually some Germano-Danish ducal line whose name escapes me...

Best Regards
Grey Wolf


ARGH, not you, too! I just ranted some days ago about that issue with Wikipedia. Whats so difficult to understand of continuity through the female line? Habsburg is Habsburg not Lorraine, Romanov is Romanov and not Oldenburg, Luxemburg's grand-ducial house is Nassau (Walram Line) and not Bourbon-Parma, the Netherlands are ruled by (the Younger House of) Nassau-Orange and not Lippe and Princes Charles is a Windsor, and no Oldenburg!
 
Leopold Wilhelm

There is no falling out between Phillip and Ferdinand following the death of the Cardinal-Infante Ferdinand. Ferdinand's preferred candidate is accepted as the new governor of the Spanish Netherlands despite Phillips own preferred favourite in Don Juan of Austria. Leopold presides over the debacle at Rocroi or something similiar. Have him killed here and the way is paved for Phillip to have his own preferred candidate John installed. To gain the favour of the Emporer he will be married to Mariana, the Emporer's eldest daughter following the death of Balthasar Carlos and the Cession is reinstated to them and their offspring.

Phillip will have to find a new queen or he will satisfy himself with his only heir Maria Theresa by his first wife. Since there is no Salic law she can inherit. Her marriage will be a matter of some concern for the Hapsburgs of course, but she is only 8 at this time and will be 14 when her father dies. And a very eligible woman in the courts of Europe. A French marriage is out of the question. However her marriage could finally be a chance to inject new blood into the Spanish Hapsburgs. I suggest then her marriage to Carlos Emmanuel II of Savoy or perhaps Eugene Maurice (preferred) of the Carignano line of Savoy would be a good choice. Alternatively, Ranuncio II Farnese of Parma or his younger brother Alessandro. The first is preferred but if not the second should increase the Spanish presence in North Italy, However it would likely have an unsettling effect on the House of Savoy. So cultivate it as a response to a rejection of the first by the house of Savoy.

John is only a half cousin to Mariana, and will inject new blood into the Hapsburg bloodline.. Simply have the Cession to John and Mariana confirmed as part of the peace of Westphalia. Voila, a new Hapsburg state on the northern frontier of France. I'd venture it as Kingdom of the Netherlands as opposed to the Republic of the United Provinces.

John's mission would be to try and form a lasting rapprochemont with the northern provinces so that a united effort can be directed against France if need be. As a separate Kingdom within the HRE he at least has the hope of eventually finding a diplomatic solution that may bring the Dutch back into the fold ( fat chance, but he can try ). If he were to reaffirm the status of those provinces that was gained during the 12 year truce, despite Spanish misgivings, then it could cut short the 80 year war and the two states along with Spain can cooperate to curb the French.

Thoughts?
 
John's mission would be to try and form a lasting rapprochemont with the northern provinces so that a united effort can be directed against France if need be. As a separate Kingdom within the HRE he at least has the hope of eventually finding a diplomatic solution that may bring the Dutch back into the fold ( fat chance, but he can try ). If he were to reaffirm the status of those provinces that was gained during the 12 year truce, despite Spanish misgivings, then it could cut short the 80 year war and the two states along with Spain can cooperate to curb the French.

The Dutch got along well with France until the War of Devolution and would, IMO, prefer a French alliance to divide the Southern Netherlands.
 
The Dutch got along well with France until the War of Devolution and would, IMO, prefer a French alliance to divide the Southern Netherlands.


The Dutch preferred the French alliance only when the Spanish were breathing down their necks towards re-conquest. They joined the War of Devolution specifically to keep the French out. A reduced/weakened Spanish presence was eminently more preferred to French annexation or even a division of the region.

By this time, the counter reformation was in full force, most of the Southern protestants had already left for the northern counties, so from the Dutch perspective they would be adding a number of re-Catholicised regions and given themselves a land frontier with the expansionistic French Kingdom. Hardly in their long term interests. A buffer state between them was their best course. As I stated John's primary mission at the outset will be to maintain the truce and continue to rebuild the lands of the southern Netherlands to make them a viable entity in their own right. For that he needs peace with the Dutch, as the French are the far more dangerous and historical enemy of the Habsburgs.
 
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