Earlier Anglo-Danish-Dutch alliance?

This started out as me wondering about the POD of Edward VI of England surviving. Before his death, there were talks about a marriage between him and Elisabeth of Valois as part of a peace treaty between England and France, and I initially considered this, but I see three problems with it:

1. Edward was zealously Protestant and Elisabeth Catholic, so the marriage would be strained if not an outright disaster.
2. While France was less Anti-Protestant and more Anti-Hapsburg, Mary, Queen of Scots was married to the heir to the French throne, thus threatening England's nothern and southern borders.
3. Elisabeth was 8 at the time of Edward's OTL death, and I'd imagine his advisors would be very keen to get him breeding ASAP, so they'd search for someone who was closer to Edward's age, a year or two older or younger.

Instead, I decided that Edward might marry a younger sister (listed here - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_I,_Count_of_Nassau-Dillenburg) of William the Silent, Prince of Orange and leader of the Dutch Revolt. I also decided that Edward would marry his half-sister Elizabeth to the future Frederick II of Denmark and Norway, one of her OTL suitors, possibly to counter Scotland.

Could such an alliance be effective, and for how long?

EDIT: I just remembered something along these lines happened IOTL, with the marriage of Mary II and William III of England and the marriage of Queen Anne and Prince George of Denmark.
 
Last edited:
What about forcing Bloody Mary to marry the Duke of Cleves first, this never happened because Mary refused to marry protestant.
 
Elizabeth and Frederick are reasonable, but a Dutch match for Edward definitely isn't remotely plausible. William the Silent isn't really in a position to marry his sister off to the King of England during Edward VI's reign. He's a random nobleman (the Spanish didn't appoint him as Stadtholder until 1559, and he didn't even break with Spain until the mid-1560s), and even if we allow Edward to live significantly longer, it's far from clear he would become leader of the Dutch. Stadtholder didn't have any of the power and meaning we associate it with from the Dutch Republic; it essentially just meant local governor for the King of Spain at the time. William and Mary took place a century later, and in a completely different situation.

Anglo-Spanish relations were incredibly complicated during the time (Protestant anti-Spanish sentiment conflicting with the need for allies against France), and actually reasonably friendly even well into Elizabeth's reign (Philip's influence on her behalf was one of the main reasons it took 11 years for the Pope to declare Elizabeth illegitimate and deposed), only breaking down as conflict over English support for the Dutch rebels and piratical activities in the New World. Marrying a minor noble family whose only claim to fame is being rebels against the crown is a massive provocation without any gain.

Which brings us to the other issue: England was perfectly willing to ally to and support the Dutch without such a marriage. For that matter, the Dutch rebels were even willing to offer to make Elizabeth their monarch, without a marriage; they presumably would be willing to do the same thing for Edward, making a marriage to the House of Orange even less necessary.
 
Elizabeth and Frederick are reasonable, but a Dutch match for Edward definitely isn't remotely plausible. William the Silent isn't really in a position to marry his sister off to the King of England during Edward VI's reign. He's a random nobleman (the Spanish didn't appoint him as Stadtholder until 1559, and he didn't even break with Spain until the mid-1560s), and even if we allow Edward to live significantly longer, it's far from clear he would become leader of the Dutch. Stadtholder didn't have any of the power and meaning we associate it with from the Dutch Republic; it essentially just meant local governor for the King of Spain at the time. William and Mary took place a century later, and in a completely different situation.

Anglo-Spanish relations were incredibly complicated during the time (Protestant anti-Spanish sentiment conflicting with the need for allies against France), and actually reasonably friendly even well into Elizabeth's reign (Philip's influence on her behalf was one of the main reasons it took 11 years for the Pope to declare Elizabeth illegitimate and deposed), only breaking down as conflict over English support for the Dutch rebels and piratical activities in the New World. Marrying a minor noble family whose only claim to fame is being rebels against the crown is a massive provocation without any gain.

Which brings us to the other issue: England was perfectly willing to ally to and support the Dutch without such a marriage. For that matter, the Dutch rebels were even willing to offer to make Elizabeth their monarch, without a marriage; they presumably would be willing to do the same thing for Edward, making a marriage to the House of Orange even less necessary.

I never implied that Edward might become Stadtholder, but okay. I'd reckon Edward would be willing to give up Calais for the richer Netherlands*. He was described as having a grasp on monetary affairs.

I suppose he could still marry Elisabeth of Valois, but like I said, even if he doesn't get the bout of sickness that killed him IOTL, he would still be under pressure to produce heirs. Just as his father flip-flopped between the Valois and the Hapsburgs, Edward might do the same. Holy Roman Emperor Ferdinand I had three unmarried daughters around Edward's age in 1553, Eleanor, Margaret and Barbara.

*: By that, I mean Calais was bound to fall eventually, not that Edward would give it up willingly.
 
I never implied that Edward might become Stadtholder, but okay. I'd reckon Edward would be willing to give up Calais for the richer Netherlands*. He was described as having a grasp on monetary affairs.

I suppose he could still marry Elisabeth of Valois, but like I said, even if he doesn't get the bout of sickness that killed him IOTL, he would still be under pressure to produce heirs. Just as his father flip-flopped between the Valois and the Hapsburgs, Edward might do the same. Holy Roman Emperor Ferdinand I had three unmarried daughters around Edward's age in 1553, Eleanor, Margaret and Barbara.

*: By that, I mean Calais was bound to fall eventually, not that Edward would give it up willingly.
Sure, but my point is that William the Silent didn't have the Netherlands or anything else to give (certainly not by the point Edward would need to marry, as you note, he needs heirs); he was essentially a minor German noble with some ties to the Netherlands. It would be an extremely unequal marriage.

A Valois bride doesn't prevent a flip-flopping foreign policy, even if it might make things awkward in the bedroom (neither Henry V nor Henry VI let their marriages permanently prevent them from warring with France, and the Valois and Habsburgs were marrying each other and then returning to fighting at the drop of a hat). For that matter, if Edward decides to take another crack at the French throne (an idea his father never completely abandoned), it might even make things either.
 
Sure, but my point is that William the Silent didn't have the Netherlands or anything else to give (certainly not by the point Edward would need to marry, as you note, he needs heirs); he was essentially a minor German noble with some ties to the Netherlands. It would be an extremely unequal marriage.

Alright, alright, I get it.

A Valois bride doesn't prevent a flip-flopping foreign policy, even if it might make things awkward in the bedroom (neither Henry V nor Henry VI let their marriages permanently prevent them from warring with France, and the Valois and Habsburgs were marrying each other and then returning to fighting at the drop of a hat). For that matter, if Edward decides to take another crack at the French throne (an idea his father never completely abandoned), it might even make things either.

Henry V and Henry VI weren't following a Christian denomination being denouced as heretical by most of the Christian world. They were also operating from a position of either extreme strength or extreme weakness.

As for an attempt on the French throne, Henry VIII bankrupted the country just with his sieges of Montreuil and Boulogne. The Duke of Northumberland had already realised they couldn't afford the cost of further wars.
 

HJ Tulp

Donor
As Just a Rube said: if you want a English-Dutch alliance you don't really need a marriage though you if the POD is William the Silent not being assasinated it might work later on. What works better if Elisabeth (or any other English monarch, the Dutch tried to make almost every royal in western Europe their monarch and only settled for a republic when that didn't work out) accepts the suzerainity of the Netherlands or at least actually help the rebellion instead of harming it by sending Dudley and his corrupt underlings.
 
Alright, alright, I get it.
Sorry, didn't mean to come off so harsh.

The idea of an Anglo-Dutch-Danish Alliance could still work, it just wouldn't involve a marriage. The broader substance is fine.

I agree that taking the crown of France wouldn't work, but that wouldn't necessarily stop an ambitious English monarch from trying. English monarchs in the 16th and 17th centuries regularly tried things they couldn't come close to paying for, especially when those things involved sending an army across the Channel. Most likely the real goal would be "get paid off, and maybe take a few minor French towns," but the idea could be used as justification, especially if the Valois still die out.
 
As Just a Rube said: if you want a English-Dutch alliance you don't really need a marriage though you if the POD is William the Silent not being assasinated it might work later on. What works better if Elisabeth (or any other English monarch, the Dutch tried to make almost every royal in western Europe their monarch and only settled for a republic when that didn't work out) accepts the suzerainity of the Netherlands or at least actually help the rebellion instead of harming it by sending Dudley and his corrupt underlings.
Don't be too harsh to Dudley. He was crucial to Dutch unity. He was a so incompitant idiot that the Dutch provinces, he usualy prefered quareling, unified to get rid of him and formed the Dutch republic. Without the bumbeling buffoon the Spanish might have defeated the Dutch by playing the provinces against each other.
 
Last edited:
Sorry, didn't mean to come off so harsh.

Neither did I. So I'm sorry too.

The idea of an Anglo-Dutch-Danish Alliance could still work, it just wouldn't involve a marriage. The broader substance is fine.

I agree that taking the crown of France wouldn't work, but that wouldn't necessarily stop an ambitious English monarch from trying. English monarchs in the 16th and 17th centuries regularly tried things they couldn't come close to paying for, especially when those things involved sending an army across the Channel. Most likely the real goal would be "get paid off, and maybe take a few minor French towns," but the idea could be used as justification, especially if the Valois still die out.

I see now that, if the Dutch revolt goes as OTL and they offer the crown to Edward, he could be ambitious enough to accept such an offer. I'm also having second thoughts about a marriage alliance with Ferdinand of Austria. Because if Edward does accept being monarch of the Netherlands, Philip II of Spain isn't going to take it lying down, and I doubt Ferdinand is going to be able to convince his nephew to launch an ATL Spanish Armada.

So yeah, I guess it'll have to be Elisabeth of France. That might also counter the union of Francis II and Mary, Queen of Scots.

The idea of the English claim to the French throne could be used as justification if the Bourbons come to the throne as IOTL, but I doubt the English or the French would be keen on "The Hundred Years War 2: Electric Boogaloo", especially in an age of great powers and the idea of "European balance of power".
 
Top