E Boats for Sealion

[Father Maryland]

A number of Canadians also see firearms as a useful
tool to prevent themselves or their loved ones from being eaten

One of the few ways civilians in Canada can sometimes get a permit to carry a handgun (with many restrictions) pertains to self defence against wild animals. (They are reportedly only issued to those who have a professional or work reason to be in the back country and can't use a rifle or shotgun for that purpose.)

Thats the reason why for decades the standard greeting for foreign immigrants walking the gang plank to first land in Canada would be a smiling mountie with the following greeting.

" Welcome to Canada. Here is a 10gauge shotgun for when you run into the small bears. And here is a handgun in the event you encounter one of the larger rounds. Remember to save your family the suffering before saving yourself the same fate. And here is a flamethrower for when you encounter the odd Wendigo.

Remember the siren sounds at sundown and plays again at sun up. If you were foolish enough to not immediately seek shelter before the sundown siren in the event that you're partially eaten cadaver is ever found your surviving loved ones will be fined in your place for littering.

And between the months of August to June Remember your house will be buried in at least 40 Feet of snow. If you are the odd duck that doesn't maintain the average 11 month supply of ammunition, Kraft Dinner, fuel, and whiskey its a good idea to beforehand come up with a list ranking your children by how much you love them versus their caloric value. Saves a lot of time.

Welcome to Canada.".

 

[alfredtuomi]

Only partially true. A convoy of German troops on the the way to Crete was saved by the timely intervention of the Luftwaffe, which sank 2 British cruisers and a destroyer. The German attack was aborted, but the convoy retreated unscathed under the protection of a smoke screen.

the British had no significant air cover at Crete,in the channel they would.

 

[Capt Thunderbolt]

Committing a lot of capitol ships against the invasion fleet isn't really necessary. There are more than enough cruisers and destroyers (plus numerous small craft like MTB's and MGB's) which are both faster and present smaller targets. They have more than sufficient firepower to do the job. And when, as mentioned in earlier threads, they sail at full speed through the formation their wakes will break tow lines and swamp barges plus scatter the formation to every end of the earth.

It will not be pretty and there's not a lot the KM or Luftwaffe can do to stop it...

The RN still had to keep some powder dry.

Bismarck was working up in the Baltic, its sister following on. S&G although damaged, full time of repairs was unknown.

RN had lost Royal Oak to U-boats, Glorious, and ships mined. Nelson had been bomb hit, bomb straddled, torpedoed (luckily 3 duds) and mined, and had just spent 6 months at Portsmouth and Clyde repairing damage.

RN still had to have enough capital ships north to protect conveys, and had more than enough cruisers to deal with Sealion.

No warship will be rushing anywhere, especially the channel, until minesweepers lead.

HMS Nelson
1 9 4 0
January

4th - At 1430 hours preceded by the steamer ILSENSTEIN, acting as a mine detonator, the NELSON escorted by the destroyers FAULKNOR, FAME, FOXHOUND, FORESIGHT, ISIS and IMPULSIVE sailed from Loch Ewe for Portsmouth for repair,.

June

(Because of the activities of the Luftwaffe aircraft both bombing and laying magnetic mines in the vicinity of Portsmouth the Admiralty decided to move the NELSON away from danger to complete her refit in the north. Further due to the situation in France the move became even more necessary)

6th - At 1700 hours the NELSON escorted by destroyers AMAZON, WARWICK and WITCH sailed from Portsmouth for the Clyde for completion of refit. .

(On leaving Portsmouth Harbour, NELSON was preceded by two minesweepers. At 1900 hours when south of the Nab the minesweepers detonated two magnetic mines that were in NELSON's path)

 

[CV(N)-6]

The RN still had to keep some powder dry.

Bismarck was working up in the Baltic, its sister following on. S&G although damaged, full time of repairs was unknown.

RN had lost Royal Oak to U-boats, Glorious, and ships mined. Nelson had been bomb hit, bomb straddled, torpedoed (luckily 3 duds) and mined, and had just spent 6 months at Portsmouth and Clyde repairing damage.

RN still had to have enough capital ships north to protect conveys, and had more than enough cruisers to deal with Sealion.

No warship will be rushing anywhere, especially the channel, until minesweepers lead.

HMS Nelson
1 9 4 0
January

4th - At 1430 hours preceded by the steamer ILSENSTEIN, acting as a mine detonator, the NELSON escorted by the destroyers FAULKNOR, FAME, FOXHOUND, FORESIGHT, ISIS and IMPULSIVE sailed from Loch Ewe for Portsmouth for repair,.

June

(Because of the activities of the Luftwaffe aircraft both bombing and laying magnetic mines in the vicinity of Portsmouth the Admiralty decided to move the NELSON away from danger to complete her refit in the north. Further due to the situation in France the move became even more necessary)

6th - At 1700 hours the NELSON escorted by destroyers AMAZON, WARWICK and WITCH sailed from Portsmouth for the Clyde for completion of refit. .

(On leaving Portsmouth Harbour, NELSON was preceded by two minesweepers. At 1900 hours when south of the Nab the minesweepers detonated two magnetic mines that were in NELSON's path)

Isn't the number one priority for any navy, especially for one of an island nation, to prevent the landing of a major land force in that country? Sure the invasion will fail but the British don't know that for sure. Kind of pointless to keep your ships away from the action if the result of that could be losing your home country?

 

[Capt Thunderbolt]

The RN still had to keep some powder dry.

Bismarck was working up in the Baltic, its sister following on. S&G although damaged, full time of repairs was unknown.

RN had lost Royal Oak to U-boats, Glorious, and ships mined. Nelson had been bomb hit, bomb straddled, torpedoed (luckily 3 duds) and mined, and had just spent 6 months at Portsmouth and Clyde repairing damage.

RN still had to have enough capital ships north to protect conveys, and had more than enough cruisers to deal with Sealion.

No warship will be rushing anywhere, especially the channel, until minesweepers lead.

HMS Nelson
1 9 4 0
January

4th - At 1430 hours preceded by the steamer ILSENSTEIN, acting as a mine detonator, the NELSON escorted by the destroyers FAULKNOR, FAME, FOXHOUND, FORESIGHT, ISIS and IMPULSIVE sailed from Loch Ewe for Portsmouth for repair,.

June

(Because of the activities of the Luftwaffe aircraft both bombing and laying magnetic mines in the vicinity of Portsmouth the Admiralty decided to move the NELSON away from danger to complete her refit in the north. Further due to the situation in France the move became even more necessary)

6th - At 1700 hours the NELSON escorted by destroyers AMAZON, WARWICK and WITCH sailed from Portsmouth for the Clyde for completion of refit. .

(On leaving Portsmouth Harbour, NELSON was preceded by two minesweepers. At 1900 hours when south of the Nab the minesweepers detonated two magnetic mines that were in NELSON's path)

Isn't the number one priority for any navy, especially for one of an island nation, to prevent the landing of a major land force in that country? Sure the invasion will fail but the British don't know that for sure. Kind of pointless to keep your ships away from the action if the result of that could be losing your home country?

HMS Rodney

August

23rd – At 0640 hours RODNEY departed Scapa Flow escorted by destroyers INGLEFIELD, ECHO, ESCAPADE and JAVELIN. At 2110 hours RODNEY and escort arrived at Rosyth. RODNEY to dock for a refit and to give leave.
RODNEY was at Rosyth for the remainder of the month. During the docking a Radar Type 79Z was fitted in place of prototype Type79Y that had been fitted in 1938.

September

At Rosyth under going refit.

11th – On this day RODNEY was due to leave Rosyth, but was ordered by the Admiralty to remain there.

(In the early morning of 13/9/40 the CinC Home Fleet, was informed by the Admiralty that all evidence pointed to an attempted invasion on a large scale being imminent, and that the SCHARNHORST, GNEISENAU and BISMARCK, and the two old battleships and one pocket battleship might be used by the enemy. In consequence the NELSON, Flag CinC HF, and HOOD were ordered to Rosyth to join the RODNEY)

For the remainder of September RODNEY was held at Rosyth for the interception of any attempt by major German warships attempting to enter English Channel or take passage for attacks on Atlantic shipping.

 

[Capt Thunderbolt]

Isn't the number one priority for any navy, especially for one of an island nation, to prevent the landing of a major land force in that country? Sure the invasion will fail but the British don't know that for sure. Kind of pointless to keep your ships away from the action if the result of that could be losing your home country?

No, win the war!

HMS Rodney

August

23rd – At 0640 hours RODNEY departed Scapa Flow escorted by destroyers INGLEFIELD, ECHO, ESCAPADE and JAVELIN. At 2110 hours RODNEY and escort arrived at Rosyth. RODNEY to dock for a refit and to give leave.
RODNEY was at Rosyth for the remainder of the month. During the docking a Radar Type 79Z was fitted in place of prototype Type79Y that had been fitted in 1938.

September

At Rosyth under going refit.

11th – On this day RODNEY was due to leave Rosyth, but was ordered by the Admiralty to remain there.

(In the early morning of 13/9/40 the CinC Home Fleet, was informed by the Admiralty that all evidence pointed to an attempted invasion on a large scale being imminent, and that the SCHARNHORST, GNEISENAU and BISMARCK, and the two old battleships and one pocket battleship might be used by the enemy. In consequence the NELSON, Flag CinC HF, and HOOD were ordered to Rosyth to join the RODNEY)

For the remainder of September RODNEY was held at Rosyth for the interception of any attempt by major German warships attempting to enter English Channel or take passage for attacks on Atlantic shipping.

 

[CV(N)-6]

No, win the war!

Can't win the war if you allow your enemies to do amphibious assaults without naval interdiction?

 

[jlckansas]

Well the POW’s will be employed helping maintain the Strategic Maple Syrup reserve with the number of Canadians in arms. You could even train some bears as “Guard Dogs” to keep them in the camps.

 

[Caledon]

Isn't the number one priority for any navy, especially for one of an island nation, to prevent the landing of a major land force in that country? Sure the invasion will fail but the British don't know that for sure. Kind of pointless to keep your ships away from the action if the result of that could be losing your home country?

Absolutely, if the RN could only manage one mission, then stopping an invasion would be it. But IRL they had multiple missions. Protecting their commerce was vital, and they had a globe-spanning empire to worry about. They can't park their whole navy in the channel waiting to fend off the invasion barges. They did keep a considerable force in the south, but the capital ships of the Home Fleet were needed further north, to pervent the KM from wreaking havoc on their merchant shipping.

 

[Capt Thunderbolt]

Can't win the war if you allow your enemies to do amphibious assaults without naval interdiction?

Yes it can...

And 8th April 1940

Between 1430 and 1740 hours the Fleet consisting of the RODNEY, VALIANT, DEVONSHIRE, BERWICK, YORK, SHEFFIELD, ARETHUSA, GALATEA and destroyers JUPITER, CODRINGTON (D.1), GRIFFIN, BRAZEN, ESCAPADE and ELECTRA and the French EMILE BERTIN and destroyers MAILLE BREZE and TARTU, was attacked by 47 Ju 88 bombers from KG 30 and 41 He111 bombers from KG 26.

In the attack the RODNEY was hit by a 500Kg AP bomb dropped by a Ju 88 dive bomber from 400ft. The bomb struck on the port side abaft the funnel a ready use ammunition locker deflected the bomb and split the fuse from the explosive. The body then passed through the boat deck hitting a table at which two midshipman were sitting, they had been sent below for safety. The bomb then continued down into an engineering store where it broke up on the 4' thick armoured deck, where its explosive charge caused a fire. Apart from the structural damage and a small fire, the only injuries caused were to Paymaster Midshipman W. R. H. Lapper, Commissioned Gunner F. G. Roper, Midshipman J. C. S. Wright, and seven ratings. The damage to the armoured deck and other structural damage was repaired by the ships staff who welded steel plates over the holes and RODNEY remained in action with the Fleet

In this attack the Fleet fired off 40% of their AA ammunition and only managed to shoot down four of the attacking Ju 88’s.

(This air attack made such an impression on Admiral Forbes that he decided the fleet could not operate without air superiority. Consequently, he proposed to the Admiralty an important change of plans: He would attack the Germans in the northern part of Norway with surface ships and military assistance, but the area to the south would have to be left to British submarines on account of the German air superiority in that area)​

 

[CV(N)-6]

Absolutely, if the RN could only manage one mission, then stopping an invasion would be it. But IRL they had multiple missions. Protecting their commerce was vital, and they had a globe-spanning empire to worry about. They can't park their whole navy in the channel waiting to fend off the invasion barges. They did keep a considerable force in the south, but the capital ships of the Home Fleet were needed further north, to pervent the KM from wreaking havoc on their merchant shipping.

That's not the argument. The argument is whether the RN would hesitate to send significant forces to stop an invasion of what is literally its home territory. Of course the whole fleet isn't going to be parked in the channel, but you can bet that a significant portion of the RN's light forces available plus some cruisers with the battleline on standby in case the German BB's show up will make for the channel if a crossing is attempted, and if a beachhead is somehow established a BB will be paying it a visit that night.

Yes it can...

And 8th April 1940

Between 1430 and 1740 hours the Fleet consisting of the RODNEY, VALIANT, DEVONSHIRE, BERWICK, YORK, SHEFFIELD, ARETHUSA, GALATEA and destroyers JUPITER, CODRINGTON (D.1), GRIFFIN, BRAZEN, ESCAPADE and ELECTRA and the French EMILE BERTIN and destroyers MAILLE BREZE and TARTU, was attacked by 47 Ju 88 bombers from KG 30 and 41 He111 bombers from KG 26.

In the attack the RODNEY was hit by a 500Kg AP bomb dropped by a Ju 88 dive bomber from 400ft. The bomb struck on the port side abaft the funnel a ready use ammunition locker deflected the bomb and split the fuse from the explosive. The body then passed through the boat deck hitting a table at which two midshipman were sitting, they had been sent below for safety. The bomb then continued down into an engineering store where it broke up on the 4' thick armoured deck, where its explosive charge caused a fire. Apart from the structural damage and a small fire, the only injuries caused were to Paymaster Midshipman W. R. H. Lapper, Commissioned Gunner F. G. Roper, Midshipman J. C. S. Wright, and seven ratings. The damage to the armoured deck and other structural damage was repaired by the ships staff who welded steel plates over the holes and RODNEY remained in action with the Fleet

In this attack the Fleet fired off 40% of their AA ammunition and only managed to shoot down four of the attacking Ju 88’s.

Big difference between running your fleet with no air support right into a gauntlet of enemy subs and bombers and having the RAF overhead as you sortie with a significant force to intercept an invasion of your home country. Is the RN more likely to try light forces backed up by some cruisers in the channel? Yes, at least until nightfall, but will it send significant forces? The answer should be a resounding yes.

 

[Capt Thunderbolt]

That's not the argument. The argument is whether the RN would hesitate to send significant forces to stop an invasion of what is literally its home territory. Of course the whole fleet isn't going to be parked in the channel, but you can bet that a significant portion of the RN's light forces available plus some cruisers with the battleline on standby in case the German BB's show up will make for the channel if a crossing is attempted, and if a beachhead is somehow established a BB will be paying it a visit that night.

Big difference between running your fleet with no air support right into a gauntlet of enemy subs and bombers and having the RAF overhead as you sortie with a significant force to intercept an invasion of your home country. Is the RN more likely to try light forces backed up by some cruisers in the channel? Yes, at least until nightfall, but will it send significant forces? The answer should be a resounding yes.

Of course,
But with the RAF, which had plenty of fighters, but running low on pilots, specifically those with experience or proper training,
And,
With minesweepers leading. The Texel disaster is fresh in everybodies mind.

 

[TDM]

HMS Rodney

August

23rd – At 0640 hours RODNEY departed Scapa Flow escorted by destroyers INGLEFIELD, ECHO, ESCAPADE and JAVELIN. At 2110 hours RODNEY and escort arrived at Rosyth. RODNEY to dock for a refit and to give leave.
RODNEY was at Rosyth for the remainder of the month. During the docking a Radar Type 79Z was fitted in place of prototype Type79Y that had been fitted in 1938.

September

At Rosyth under going refit.

11th – On this day RODNEY was due to leave Rosyth, but was ordered by the Admiralty to remain there.

(In the early morning of 13/9/40 the CinC Home Fleet, was informed by the Admiralty that all evidence pointed to an attempted invasion on a large scale being imminent, and that the SCHARNHORST, GNEISENAU and BISMARCK, and the two old battleships and one pocket battleship might be used by the enemy. In consequence the NELSON, Flag CinC HF, and HOOD were ordered to Rosyth to join the RODNEY)

For the remainder of September RODNEY was held at Rosyth for the interception of any attempt by major German warships attempting to enter English Channel or take passage for attacks on Atlantic shipping.

Thing is you are talking battleships, but the RN has what 70ish destroyers and approx. 8-10 cruisers in the area.

There is a significant middle ground between MTB's and Battleships.


Or put it another way when it comes to stopping barges pulled by Tug boats escorted be a few destroyers and e boats, destroyers and cruisers is an significant force


Don't get me wrong you are right to an extant about minefields but they're really just an ongoing operational factor not an existential threat. The KM and LW can't encircle the UK with minefields and the RN knows it*. So yes course the RN will be sending out mine sweepers etc, and if it comes to it they're unlikely to send out battleships unsupported. But the point is the RN has a lot of options for when it comes to running and supporting operations in their home waters.


*you mention the Texel disaster in your next post and yes that's a bad day but well it's war there will be bad days, and ships will be lost (especially Destroyers). The RN is not going to stay home until they have an affidavit from Poseidon himself that all home waters are 100% clear of mines. The threshold for a successful repulsion of sealion was never the RN suffering no loses. And there seems to be this constant theme in these threads when interpreting RN tactics that the RN (and the UK in general) is somehow more allergic to loses than the germens. When it fact the reality is that in this context the RN just far more able to limit their loses because of their comparative situations.

 

[Ramontxo]

You forgot the worst fate of all. The survivors would become British POWs. Which means they'd likely be forced to drink Warm Beer.

The sheer horror I cannot even imagine

I have a nastier proposal for you, give these poor guys a good porter (or some triple fermentation Belgian beer) taken from a, near cero, fridge. To drink good beer ice cold is about as good an idea as to drink good red wine at the same temperature. Warm beer is actually better than that
(Sorry for the digression)

 

[Garrison]

Of course,
But with the RAF, which had plenty of fighters, but running low on pilots, specifically those with experience or proper training,

Where are you getting the idea the RAF was short on pilots? Certainly they would have liked to have had more but it was the Luftwaffe that was losing experienced crews at a high rate, either killed or captured.

 

[Capt Thunderbolt]

Where are you getting the idea the RAF was short on pilots? Certainly they would have liked to have had more but it was the Luftwaffe that was losing experienced crews at a high rate, either killed or captured.

It is well known.

Shorten training time, OTU almost bypassed, bomber pilots converted.

LW pilots shot down over the channel when fished out and recycled. RAF and co, were not.

 

[Finbarr the Fair]

It is well known.

Shorten training time, OTU almost bypassed, bomber pilots converted.

LW pilots shot down over the channel when fished out and recycled. RAF and co, were not.

Fighter squadrons were under their full strength establishments by September 1940 but Luftwaffe ones had similar problems. The number of operational fighters in the two forces in France and Belgium fell significantly in September.

German pilots shot down over Britain were POWs, British ones returned to their units (eventually for the wounded). The German rescue floatplanes had become targets by then reducing the numbers rescued from the Channel.

 

[Ian Hathaway]

Fighter squadrons were under their full strength establishments by September 1940 but Luftwaffe ones had similar problems. The number of operational fighters in the two forces in France and Belgium fell significantly in September.

No they weren't, by mid September Fighter Command was at its lowest ebb in terms of aircraft and pilots. It wasn't until mid to late October that things improved. Dowding had to reorganise the Squadrons effectively designating 1/3 of his squadrons as training squadrons and only keeping about half at full strength. By Battle of Britain day there was only 2-3 days worth of reserve aircraft in the storage units. It was enough, the Germans failed in their aims, and Fighter Command fought the campaign perfectly.

 

[Garrison]

It is well known.

Shorten training time, OTU almost bypassed, bomber pilots converted.

LW pilots shot down over the channel when fished out and recycled. RAF and co, were not.

So you basically are cherry-picking the one scenario in which Luftwaffe pilots were more likely to be rescued. Given that the bulk of the combat in the BoB happened over Southern England that hardly seems representative does it? Also yes the RAF was having to take measures to fill out the ranks of fighter pilots that is a long way from the implication in your earlier post that they wouldn't be able to protect the RN from the Luftwaffe, especially as the Luftwaffe's situation in regard to crew losses was worse than that of the RAF.

 

[Capt Thunderbolt]

squadrons were under their full strength establishments by September 1940 but Luftwaffe ones had similar problems. The number of operational fighters in the two forces in France and Belgium fell significantly in September.

Even so, the battle was far from won. Stored reserves of Hurricanes and Spitfires might be ample to meet immediate needs, but had nevertheless fallen by more than fifty aircraft during the last week. At present rates of loss and estimated output they would last two months; but one or two bad days might extinguish them more rapidly, leaving our squadrons living from hand to mouth on such new aircraft as could be turned out and made ready from day to day. The supply of pilots was still more precarious. Here again the command was not yet down to bedrock; but the six or seven pilots in reserve in an average squadron were too few to cover casualties, reliefs throughout the long hours of summer daylight and other contingencies, even if all had been fully fit for active operations. To bring the single-seater squadrons up to full establishment nearly three hundred and fifty new pilots were needed; and the number due to complete their training within the next eight or nine days was lessthan eighty.