DWBI: Where did Europe go wrong?

[Morraw]

Throughout pretty much the entirety of civilized history, Asia has been the most dominating force in the entire world. From philosophy to technology to language; the peoples of that continent have left an indelible mark on the face of history, and the sheer cultural influence of states such as China testify to this historical dominance. However, what if this was not the case?

Shifting our eyes westward, we come across Europe; a subcontinent that had once been on par with Asia in the past. During the Zhou and Han eras, Europe has been dominated by their own succession of empires with technology to match any of the great states in Asia; however, over the centuries this equality in advancement fell to the wayside and Asia ultimately came out on top. Now, this begs the questions;

1. Where did Europe go wrong, and;
2. What would need to change to ensure Europe remains on par with Asia?

In short; how would you 'fix Europe'?

I don't feel that this is as difficult as some other users on the site have made it out to be. Sure, issues remain regarding Europe's low population and culture limiting it's advancement; however, I feel that a few changes here-or-there could ensure that the subcontinent at least doesn't get dominated by China, Vietnam, ect.

Any ideas?

 

[Malos]

I think if you butterfly away the Mongol Invasion of Europe somehow, you could end up with a Europe that has a much better chance to become something that isn't the plains of subsistence that it is today. Their population would be higher, their infrastructure would still be relatively intact, and they wouldn't have the effects of deforestation to worry about.

 

[darthfanta]

The problem is the religion.Christianity is by nature an intolerant religion.Look at how they burned all those scientists and scholars of note just because they did not worship that man from Palestine.How the heck would a society dominated by such an intolerant religion find progression?They blame all of their problems on the 'pagans' when they couldn't see that it was their religion and intolerance that's causing all the problems--just look at how they crashed a plane into Luoyang in Kaiyuan year 11.The religion was not only intolerant by nature,but was also divisive unlike other ideologies such as Mohist-Confucianism.Due to it's dogmatic nature,the religion was easy to splinter.The mighty Roman Empire was brought down entirely due to internal squabbles over the nature of the Galilean.

I think if you butterfly away the Mongol Invasion of Europe somehow, you could end up with a Europe that has a much better chance to become something that isn't the plains of subsistence that it is today. Their population would be higher, their infrastructure would still be relatively intact, and they wouldn't have the effects of deforestation to worry about.

If the Roman Empire's still there,the Mongols wouldn't have a chance when the Qi Empire expelled them from the area north of China and they were forced to flee to Europe.

OOC:Basically,the Confucians merged aspects of Mohism within them during the Eastern Han Dynasty and thus the Mohists made a great revival. Because China is the epicenter of the world,we are using Chinese era names instead.And yes,the west is pretty much the equivalent of the Middle East from OTL in modern times in that it's a barbaric,violent place ran by extremists.

 

[Kung Fucious]

I think if you butterfly away the Mongol Invasion of Europe somehow, you could end up with a Europe that has a much better chance to become something that isn't the plains of subsistence that it is today. Their population would be higher, their infrastructure would still be relatively intact, and they wouldn't have the effects of deforestation to worry about.

Please, Europe has inherent weaknesses that put it at odds with China, India, and Southeast Asia. While Europe is, on paper, resource rich, it's far too fractured geographically for the large, stable nation-states which arose in Asia (and to a certain extent, North America and Africa). When you're too busy clubbing each over a head in order to control a scant five miles of river, you don't have the time to develop little things like a written language, gunpowder, or time-keeping.

Seriously, as history has demonstrated, stability is what leads to innovation. "Idle hands are the engine of discovery" and all that. Even before the Mongol invasion, Europe was too fractured politically and socially to advance beyond loose tribal organizations with trumped up names. I mean, when the Romans controlled the Mediterranean they had roads, light industry, plumbing, and even mechanical computers similar to what we'd see in China or India around the same time. Once Rome fell, what did Europe produce?

OOC: I'm using OTL names because I can't be bothered coming up with new ones

 

[HIM Dogson]

Hannibal. Simple as that. His conquests destroyed the first European civilizations. After he beat Rome, he crowned himself King of Carthage, and then moved on to conquer the Alexandrian successor states, although the Parthians did conquer the Seleucid Empire. This led to the center of Western Civilization being Africa. I might get bashed for this, but Europe is still full of barbarians like the Gallians. They can't even handle their own country. Carthage stood the test of time until the Mongols attacked in 547. Name me one European "civilization" that has lasted that long.
OOC: Ignore plox

 

[darthfanta]

Hannibal. Simple as that. His conquests destroyed the first European civilizations. After he beat Rome, he crowned himself King of Carthage, and then moved on to conquer the Alexandrian successor states, although the Parthians did conquer the Seleucid Empire. This led to the center of Western Civilization being Africa. I might get bashed for this, but Europe is still full of barbarians like the Gallians. They can't even handle their own country. Carthage stood the test of time until the Mongols attacked in 547. Name me one European "civilization" that has lasted that long.

OCC:Rome didn't get destroyed by Hannibal.It got destroyed by petty Christian schisms.

 

[Morraw]

Hannibal. Simple as that. His conquests destroyed the first European civilizations. After he beat Rome, he crowned himself King of Carthage, and then moved on to conquer the Alexandrian successor states, although the Parthians did conquer the Seleucid Empire. This led to the center of Western Civilization being Africa. I might get bashed for this, but Europe is still full of barbarians like the Gallians. They can't even handle their own country. Carthage stood the test of time until the Mongols attacked in 547. Name me one European "civilization" that has lasted that long.

OOC: You can't just post something that goes against what other users have already posted. It's clearly established that the (European) POD occurs sometime after the rise of Christianity and the collapse of the Roman Empire.

 

[Intransigent Southerner]

OCC: Why the hell does the concept of an "Asia" exist ITTL?

 

[Morraw]

OCC: Why the hell does the concept of an "Asia" exist ITTL?

OOC: It's a DWBI; if you wish, you may come up with your own reasoning. Truthfully though; I simply didn't highlight the distinction between the Western and Eastern traditions regarding continents because I wanted the original post to be as simple as possible.

 

[HIM Dogson]

OOC: You can't just post something that goes against what other users have already posted. It's clearly established that the (European) POD occurs sometime after the rise of Christianity and the collapse of the Roman Empire.

OOC: You're right, sorry.

 

[FrolicsomeQuipster]

What do you guys think of the book Junks Germs and Samurai?

 

[Intransigent Southerner]

The Abrahamic religions are an issue. Western Eurasia has been retarded by it, Europe was just the worst affected because it was so remote from the center of civilization.

 

[CountPeter]

The problem is the religion.Christianity is by nature an intolerant religion.Look at how they burned all those scientists and scholars of note just because they did not worship that man from Palestine.How the heck would a society dominated by such an intolerant religion find progression?They blame all of their problems on the 'pagans' when they couldn't see that it was their religion and intolerance that's causing all the problems--just look at how they crashed a plane into Luoyang in Kaiyuan year 11.The religion was not only intolerant by nature,but was also divisive unlike other ideologies such as Mohism.Due to it's dogmatic nature,the religion was easy to splinter.The mighty Roman Empire was brought down entirely due to internal squabbles over the nature of the Galilean.


If the Roman Empire's still there,the Mongols wouldn't have a chance when the Qi Empire expelled them from the area north of China and they were forced to flee to Europe.

OOC:Basically,the Mohists won in China and beat all other ideologies such as Confucianism.Because China is the epicenter of the world,we are using Chinese era names instead.And yes,the west is pretty much the equivalent of the Middle East from OTL in modern times in that it's a barbaric,violent place ran by extremists.

OOC: Tbh not entirely sure Christianity would exist in a Mohist victory tl... Ot the mongols. Mohism was already in decline by the end of the Qin wars of unification. I think w.e. our POD is it makes sense for it to be after the birth of Christianity.

 

[CountPeter]

The Abrahamic religions are an issue. Western Eurasia has been retarded by it, Europe was just the worst affected because it was so remote from the center of civilization.

The narrative that the abrahamic religions naturally retarding a population is a myth of our eastern civilisation to make us feel better than them. The Islamic world shares just as much an Abrahamic history as the Xtians and yet Islamic civilisation still contributes to this day much in regards to natural Dharma/Dao and Chih.

Now one COULD say that the ability of eastern religions to tackle the abstract (especially in wthe ways in which emptiness prepared us for Sunyata particles/Fields) was a huge part of our philosophical and social growth, but it must be remembered that this was not entirely removed from Islam either. Although a minority, Suffism has certainly shown a way of thinking very relatable to our own philosophical sensibilities.

OOC: Trying to postulate an eastern oriented development of certain areas, namely Sunyata particles/Fields are quantum mechanics, Natural Dharma/Dao being used as a term for an equivalent of science and Chih being taken from the confucian ways I presume would be prevalent if China is a big player on the international stage.

 

[Intransigent Southerner]

The narrative that the abrahamic religions naturally retarding a population is a myth of our eastern civilisation to make us feel better than them. The Islamic world shares just as much an Abrahamic history as the Xtians and yet Islamic civilisation still contributes to this day much in regards to natural Dharma/Dao and Chih.

Yes but the rich Islamic countries like Oman or South Egyot are all very Easternized.

 

[ennobee]

What do you guys think of the book Junks Germs and Samurai?

An interesting book, however I think the author overplays the role of germs. the 'Black Death' that famously our Chinese traders brought into Europe through the silk routes did kill about 1/4 to 1/3 of the population, but it didn't kill 80% like it did in the Americas. By the time, 400 years ago, you mention as the start of Europe's decline the Plague had already vanished in Europe and population was mostly back to the level it would have been without the epidemic. I think the author cleverly included germs to make the book attractive to both the apologists (yes, WE killed Europe with our diseases... bad, bad us) and the Asian Exceptionalists (So they died because they couldn't stand our germs? Then why didn't we die? jea... that's right. We are immune because we are a better race. )

I have to agree on the Junks and Samurai though. Because of the advances in shipbuilding brought on by the Zeng He expeditions we had a leg up on all the trading routes and although I don't like the term 'gun boat politics', better ships plus professional military DID make the European ports our client states instead of the other way round.

 

[Intransigent Southerner]

snip

I'm afraid this is incorrect, the plague killed just as many of us as they killed Europeans, and furthermore the major killer in the Americas was smallpox, because they did not have the inoculation techniques that China developed early on.

Also the junks were developed by commercial merchants, although Zheng He gets all the hype because he showed how decrepit the West was with his invasion of Egypt, sack of Venice, etc.

 

[DracoLazarus]

As a Frank, I can say what doomed most Europe is Arianism. Had Arianism less slowly declined, e.g. by having the Frankish king Clovis (the one which brought Wisigothic Hispania on a descending spiral) convert to Chalcedonism instead of Arianism would make them a natural ally of the E.R.E.. A stable state would end up emerging in Gallia, instead of those petty squabbling kingdoms and duchies Justinian had no trouble gobbling.

 

[West]

Feudalism was the thing that doomed europe to be the nightmare world it is today. China, India, developed systems with rule of law were justice was coherent and known. Southern europe used to have a tradition of that before the fall. Thanks to feudalism europe is ruled by a collection of petty warlords who create an utteraly arbatrary justice system that frequently murders wealth producers under religious pretext in order to steal their stuff.

Since the wealth of the commoners is not protected under law they don't produce as much wealth because why bother when the nobles will just take it? Its telling that the one european state that doesn't have this system Greece is the only island of sanity in that hell hole.

 

[Roland Traveler]

Oh sure, blame it on Christianity or feudalism rather than the real reason: the Jews. Come on, they've always had it out for us. They killed our Savior and ceaselessly worked to overthrow Rome. All I can say is thank God that the Romans did what was right and scattered them to the winds. They managed to ruin Germania without a central base, imagine what they could have done with one! All that was needed to save Europe was for Rome to exterminate the Jews and then you filthy chinks would be kowtowing to us!

OOC: Every timeline needs racist conspiracy theorists! I personally think that this wouldn't be so far fetched in the timeline given.