DWBI: The Number 13 (Yamato) class was not built?

[Dalekiller]

Its common knowledge that the Number 13 Class was nearly cancelled in 1922 for Washington. However the Japanese Navy got its way and cancelled the Nagato Class instead and scrapped the (then) new Fuso class ships to meet the Treaty. They only built 3 out of the 4 planned (Yamato, Musashi, and Shinano) by saying they were 35,000 tons when in reality they were nearly 48,000 tons. The fact that the deception was not discovered until later caused much embarrassment and caused a mini arms race in the late 30's when a spy found the specs. What if the Japanese had not risked it in 1922 and had built the Nagato class instead?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_13-class_battleship

 

[Lost Freeway]

Well, I doubt it'd have much effect on the Pacific Theater, seeing as how Japan held back its BBs until the very end, when they were sunk by USN carrier planes after being shot up in a surface engagement in the Naval Battle of the Ryukyus.

 

[Dalekiller]

Still the Yamato and Class 20 (I refuse to call them by their names, the ones with the 20 inchers) may not have made it to the battlefleet. Those 5 ships did a lot of damage.

 

[Lost Freeway]

Still the Yamato and Class 20 (I refuse to call them by their names, the ones with the 20 inchers) may not have made it to the battlefleet. Those 5 ships did a lot of damage.

Indeed. While the USN may not have lost any BBs, the USS Montana and USS Missouri both spent the remainder of the war in drydock.

 

[Dalekiller]

Agreed, plus it gave the impetous for the Japanese navy to build more battleships rather than carriers. My theory is that Japan could've done much better with a true carrier fleet instead of waisitng the metal on those ships.

 

[RamscoopRaider]

They perform better

Scrapping Nagato, Mutsu, Fuso and Yamashiro (which were all already built) wasted a lot of money already spent, and building 3 48,000 tonners (plus half building another) cost far more than they got out of scrappng them. By my math building those three cost them probably 6 heavy cruisers, 6 light cruisers and 2 dozen destroyers or equivalent. If they hadn't built them they would have had those ships, and an extra BB, and the US and UK would have built fewer new designs and modernized existing ones less

 

[Dalekiller]

During the US buildup starting from 1935, if it happens at all!, what would not have been built had there only been 16 inch Nagatos if there was no discovery of 18.1 inch armed ships?

 

[RamscoopRaider]

During the US buildup starting from 1935, if it happens at all!, what would not have been built had there only been 16 inch Nagatos if there was no discovery of 18.1 inch armed ships?

US was planning two things, either 16" BB of 27 knots, or 14" 31.5 knot Kongo killer BC (possibly reusing turrets from the Nevada and Pennsylvania class BB) according to the replacement schedule laid out in the WNT, then everybody realized Japan ignored the treaty and Japan suddenly realized it screwed up

US is certainly at least going to follow the replacement schedule of 1-2 BB a year, it did build up to its other treaty limits

 

[Dalekiller]

The amazing thing is the US never went down the trap of an 18 inch cannon vessel along with Britian who made their modified G3's. When they faced the 20 and 18 inch guns it was initially a one sided fight but as they got closer the weight of fire turned the tide.

 

[RamscoopRaider]

The amazing thing is the US never went down the trap of an 18 inch cannon vessel along with Britian who made their modified G3's. When they faced the 20 and 18 inch guns it was initially a one sided fight but as they got closer the weight of fire turned the tide.

Opposite, at range the US dominated because of superior fire control, getting close in was needed for penetration, but the US and UK regularly got the first few hits in thanks to radar directed fire. The US at least developed 16" shells that let their newest 16" guns outperform the older Japanese 18" design, and figured that 16" faster rate of fire, and ability to mount more would smother the enemy. Compare the 16 16" guns of a Montana firing every 40 seconds to the 6 20" guns firing every minute of a No. 20 class, that's 48 shells in 2 minutes against 12, or 4 times the shells, with better fire control the US figured they could get 6 hits in for every one they took, and they were correct, that one hit just smarted

The US did build an test an 18" gun and studied BB with 20" guns (they figured on a hull 10% larger than the Japanese 20" BB used they could get 3 more knots, 2 more 20" guns of a more powerful type and armor of the same thickness but better quality), the guns just had such a long development and lead time that the 18" ships were scheduled to be laid down in '42, but the Pacific war and changing priorities scuttled that

 

[Dalekiller]

Still the most amazing things were that the US battlefleet got to fight an almost undamaged Japanese battlefleet (6 Iowas and 3 G3s vs the 5 ships) without aircraft carriers getting involed due to the mass Kamikaze strike that day plus storms preventing the fleet from being spotted until too late. Halsley had egg on his face for that.

 

[RamscoopRaider]

Still the most amazing things were that the US battlefleet got to fight an almost undamaged Japanese battlefleet (6 Iowas and 3 G3s vs the 5 ships) without aircraft carriers getting involed due to the mass Kamikaze strike that day plus storms preventing the fleet from being spotted until too late. Halsley had egg on his face for that.

Halsey had also spent the previous day using the Kongo's and carriers as a punching bag as the Japanese had planned

As it was only the fast elements of the Allied battle line got to engage, the Montana's, SoDaks and Lions didn't catch up in time. That really disappointed the crew of the Montana's, they wanted to get a piece of the #20's after Montana got drubbed in the attempt to halt the break north from Brunei, the Ise's suicide run stopped them from getting the chance there

 

[Dalekiller]

That was amazing. Still it was the best of both fleets engaging while rain poured on them preventing quicker reinforement from the air.

 

[RamscoopRaider]

That was amazing. Still it was the best of both fleets engaging while rain poured on them preventing quicker reinforement from the air.

I wouldn't call it the best from the allied side, the strongest vessels the Montana's with 16 16" firing super heavy shells and Lions with 9 rapid fire 16" did not get a chance to engage, of course then it would have been a massacre

As it was it was pretty close to a massacre, outside of the lucky salvoes on Missouri, the Japanese were too hindered by the rain to accurately shoot back and the Allied BB were all blindfire capable (Radar master race). Plus the #13 was arguably inferior to a G3 and certainly inferior to an Iowa, and a #20 was better but not overwhelmingly so, and the allies had them almost 2 to 1. Yeah the allies didn't manage to sink more than a single #13, but none of the four survivors were really combat capable, and if the allies hadn't spotted that sub and ran away they would have been finished off before the carriers got their chance the next day

 

[Dalekiller]

Still I always had a soft spot for Yamato, unlike her siblings and most of the Japanese Fleet she did a lot of work. She sank the Prince of Whales and Repulse after they escaped unharmed from the Japanese bombers, then sank the Washington and saved the Kirishima (for the good that did ). There's a reason she was called the 'Scharnhorst of the Pacific' plus she reamed the HMS Temeraire, a Super version of the G3 class and blasted the Iowas A turret clean off. When she finally sank, from 12 torpedoes after dodging 32 of them. It was said the Allied High Command was finally sure the navy was defeated.

 

[Lost Freeway]

Agreed, plus it gave the impetous for the Japanese navy to build more battleships rather than carriers.

That pretty much describes every major navy during the 1920s and 1930s. It took the sinking of Bismarck by the aircraft carriers HMS Anson and HMS Howe after the Battle of the Denmark Strait to truly demonstrate that the reign of the battleship was starting to end. The annihilation of the Regia Marina in the Battle of the Tyrrhenian Sea and the final destruction of the IJN in the Ryukyus ony sealed the deal.

Halsey had also spent the previous day using the Kongo's and carriers as a punching bag as the Japanese had planned

As it was only the fast elements of the Allied battle line got to engage, the Montana's, SoDaks and Lions didn't catch up in time. That really disappointed the crew of the Montana's, they wanted to get a piece of the #20's after Montana got drubbed in the attempt to halt the break north from Brunei, the Ise's suicide run stopped them from getting the chance there

I wouldn't call it the best from the allied side, the strongest vessels the Montana's with 16 16" firing super heavy shells and Lions with 9 rapid fire 16" did not get a chance to engage, of course then it would have been a massacre

I think you've confused the Montana class with the Colorado class and the SoDaks with the Alabama class. Montana, New Hampshire, and Massachusetts were all present with the Iowa sisters, with Montana being the flagship of Vice Admiral Lee. Lee was a surprisingly good sport about Halsey's flattops stealing the finishing blow.

Still I always had a soft spot for Yamato, unlike her siblings and most of the Japanese Fleet she did a lot of work. She sank the Prince of Whales and Repulse after they escaped unharmed from the Japanese bombers, then sank the Washington and saved the Kirishima (for the good that did ). There's a reason she was called the 'Scharnhorst of the Pacific' plus she reamed the HMS Temeraire, a Super version of the G3 class and blasted the Iowas A turret clean off. When she finally sank, from 12 torpedoes after dodging 32 of them. It was said the Allied High Command was finally sure the navy was defeated.

I'm afraid you've been misinformed. The source of all of those stories, one L. Matsumoto, was exposed as a fraud when his claim to have served on Yamato was proven to be false. Yamato never engaged Prince of Wales and Repulse, who likewise didn't escape from the Japanese bombers-Repulse was sunk, while POW spent the better part of a year in drydock. Also, she didn't sink Washington, just heavily damage her, and certainly didn't save Kirishima, which was scuttled the next day. And while she did give a good account of herself at the Ryukyus, she certainly didn't dodge 32 torpedoes-she simply wasn't nimble enough for that.

Yeah, Matsumoto's stories were a load of BS, but that hasn't stopped Japanese ultranationalists from quoting from them.

 

[Dalekiller]

Still I though POW did engage her when she was sunk. I was reading A Glorious Way to Die which described her last battle and career,

 

[Zheng He]

I have read that the Japanese building those monster battleships is the primary reason the US did not waste resources on the Alaska class battlecruisers/large cruisers/super heavy cruisers or whatever you want to call them.

 

[Dalekiller]

Well when the revalation came about all the major nations forgot about ships to counter the Deutschland class and made ships to counter the Yamato class.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

Yes POWs commanding officer Captain Guy D'Oyly-Hughes while undeniably brave (how he was not awarded a VC for his work in WW1?) was no Battleship commander - the fact that Yamato and her escorts caught him at condition 4 in a battlezone with half his boilers unlit and his 4 Amphibians still in their hangers belies belief - I accept that the ship was short of Fuel (at his Courts Martial he claimed he wanted to save fuel in case he had to sortie again what with half the fuel stores in Singapore up in flames) but no spotters in the crows nest, the radar switched off......had a single aircraft been aloft and she would have had plenty of time to fire up the other boilers and used her superior speed to escape detection and avoid the fight.

Its tantamount to the G3 Design and her crews training that she survived that brutal 30 minutes under the guns of the Japanese BB and managed to get out of range of the Yamato and then 'dissuade' the 3 Heavy Cruisers that took up the chase

Admiral Pound famously wrote that "POW seems to have forgotten that she was a Man O War" and Churchill wrote of the action that "There is nothing more useless than a 'sleeping' warship in a warzone"