DWBI Kimmel didn't know?

I'd guess the outboard ships still sink. Arizona, according to CalBear, could be easily butterflied away.

Total damage to the sunken ships is also lessened. maybe Oklahoma sinks more slowly from fewer torpedoes and doesn't capsize. All the ships are raised that much easier. Except Utah, which just isn't worth it.

IIRC Arizona was due to a very lucky hit that got into the magazines.

What about the midget subs? If they waited outside Pearl for the BBs to come sailing out, could they have done any real damage, maybe sink the first BB in line and bottle up the entire Pacific Fleet's battle line?

I may want to write a TL on this sometime...
 
Havent any of you read Harry Turtledoves Day of Infamy series about the ww2 with a point of divergense a Pearl Harbor that WAS attacked unsuspected and ends with 2 nukes going of in Japan(ooc: OTL ww2 as a Turtledoveseries)
 

Bearcat

Banned
IIRC Arizona was due to a very lucky hit that got into the magazines.

What about the midget subs? If they waited outside Pearl for the BBs to come sailing out, could they have done any real damage, maybe sink the first BB in line and bottle up the entire Pacific Fleet's battle line?

I may want to write a TL on this sometime...

One midget malfunctioned and ended up beached. I think two made it into the harbor - one got rammed, the other may or may not have gotten a shot off, radioed its mother sub, and scuttled in the harbor.

One more got shot up and sunk by the Ward.

That only leaves one other AFAIK. With just 2 torps. So there won't be much damage from that.

There are more larger fleet subs further out, but they'll have trouble getting into position to fire during the day. If Kimmel is lucky he might just get away with it.
 
One midget malfunctioned and ended up beached. I think two made it into the harbor - one got rammed, the other may or may not have gotten a shot off, radioed its mother sub, and scuttled in the harbor.

One more got shot up and sunk by the Ward.

That only leaves one other AFAIK. With just 2 torps. So there won't be much damage from that.

There are more larger fleet subs further out, but they'll have trouble getting into position to fire during the day. If Kimmel is lucky he might just get away with it.

Alright, let's say that the two that make it into harbour IOTL instead skulk around at the exit with the one, making 6 fish. Could that stop a USN battleship coming out of Pearl and block off the rest of the Pacific Fleet?
 

Bearcat

Banned
Alright, let's say that the two that make it into harbour IOTL instead skulk around at the exit with the one, making 6 fish. Could that stop a USN battleship coming out of Pearl and block off the rest of the Pacific Fleet?

Yeah... *if* they can just sit there in perfect position, and no DDs with sonar, aggressively patrolling after the Ward sinks another midget, don't liberally perforate them.

In general, midgets in WW2 did better against stationary, unwitting targets.

My money would be on the US destroyers here.
 
Yeah... *if* they can just sit there in perfect position, and no DDs with sonar, aggressively patrolling after the Ward sinks another midget, don't liberally perforate them.

In general, midgets in WW2 did better against stationary, unwitting targets.

My money would be on the US destroyers here.


Any USN battleship, comming out of Pearl Harbor shortly after the attack, would still face the problems of being designed for the previous war and lacking the necessary updates in construction for the new war. (All BB's were basically in more or less their original configuration when built, in 1941, appart from some minor upgrades and sometimes bulging in some classes)

The IJN midget submarines used in the Pearl Harbor Attack, were armed with the type 97 17.7 inch oxigen propelled torpedoes. This torpedo was armed with a warhead of 350 kg (= 772 lbs), specially designed for use against capital ships. The weapon was only used in the Pearl Harbor Attack. Only 100 or so were built and it was succeeded by the simmilarly sized Type 98 torpedo for the Midget Submarines of the IJN, as the purely oxigen driven type 97 proved a bit too unstable to be used in primitive conditions on a midget sub.

Given the size of the warhead on the 17.7 inch torpedoes, a single hit on any of teh USN BB's would propably be serious, as non of the BB's were designed to counter a torpedowarhead in exces of 400 lbs. Even the modern BB's were not designed to counter heavier warheads either.

Compared to this, the Airlaunched Type 91, used in the Airattack on Pearl Harbor, used a smaller warhead of 205 kg (= 452 lbs) and this weapon easily defeated the TDS on the BB's hit, causing massive flooding in all cases, sometimes sped up by absense of watertight doors on at least one BB (USS California). Most BB's struck by torpedoes settled at the bottom of the harbor, except the USS Arizona, which already exploded before flooding could have sunk her. USS Nevada was run aground, to prevent her sinking in the harborentrance, indicating she was already in a sinking condition after her single torpedohit early on in the Attack. The bombs of the D3Y's did not have had the power to defeat her, being too light to penetrate her main and upgraded armored deck. Only hits on the soft ends caused some additional fllooding.

This may conclude that any of the USN BB's, when at sea in deep water was at extreme risk of being torpedoed, not only by the possible presence of the surviving Midget Submarines, but also by their carriers, who still patrolled of the harbor, in case the USN did break out. Luckily the USN did not do so, preventing additional heavy losses under especially personel.
 
Hmm...

I was looking at Google Maps, and...look for Kama'aina Kids Iroquois around the mouth of Pearl. Right next to Batteries Hasebrouck and Hawkins. See that little inlet there? It looks to be the same depth as the harbour entrance, and we know that the midgets could get through that undetected. Maybe they camp there until the first BB comes along, charge out to within a hundred meters or so, and fire?
 

burmafrd

Banned
Did any midget sub ever hit a moving target? If so it was very rare. A full sized sub has the better periscope for getting proper range and bearing, not to mention the TBF which figured it all out. I have my doubts just how well a midget sub would do attacking ships moving at speeds of 10 knots or better.
 
Top