Dutch Superpower
- Thread starter Faeelin
- Start date
You could have a further pounding by the Dutch fleet during the Protectorate period, no killing of this famous admiral I can't remember in that period, and a more "even" approach to other ethnicities.
Tony Jones who wrote the Puritan World had them rise up on the account of the said tactic as well as many Jews migrating there.
Tony Jones who wrote the Puritan World had them rise up on the account of the said tactic as well as many Jews migrating there.
The biggest problem the Dutch superpower has is size.
1) Population 1700: Britain 9 million, France 19 million, United Provinces 1.8 million.
2) Armies Britian 200,000 (1756), France 400,000 (1689), United Provinces 130,000 (1710)
3) Fleets: Britain 124 (1739), France 120 (1689), United Provinces 66 (1689)
I have taken the largest figures for the armed forces to show what could be achieved if the government of the country really worked hard.
As you can see, the Dutch are outclassed by both France and Britain. To get the size to compete, they have got either control part of France (their principle rival) or a major slice of the Holy Roman Empire.
A larger "Dutch state" would also require time to integrate its various holdings. France had already done that and Britian was effectively dominated by England. Between the time they kick out the Spanish say 1700, I am not sure that they have enough time to do it, especially as they will also be involved in a number of European wars at the same time.
1) Population 1700: Britain 9 million, France 19 million, United Provinces 1.8 million.
2) Armies Britian 200,000 (1756), France 400,000 (1689), United Provinces 130,000 (1710)
3) Fleets: Britain 124 (1739), France 120 (1689), United Provinces 66 (1689)
I have taken the largest figures for the armed forces to show what could be achieved if the government of the country really worked hard.
As you can see, the Dutch are outclassed by both France and Britain. To get the size to compete, they have got either control part of France (their principle rival) or a major slice of the Holy Roman Empire.
A larger "Dutch state" would also require time to integrate its various holdings. France had already done that and Britian was effectively dominated by England. Between the time they kick out the Spanish say 1700, I am not sure that they have enough time to do it, especially as they will also be involved in a number of European wars at the same time.
Max Sinister
Banned
And as the numbers show us, the Dutch had already proportionally more soldiers and ships per capita than the others. France and england could still have had more, if the situation was really desperate - the Dutch had already reached their limit.
Well if they can hang on to Belgium and somehow wind up with a big chunk of Germany...
An earlier POD? Getting rid of both Spanish and Austrian overlords? Gives them time to integrate. Also means they may be able to get bits and pieces of Germany and France.
I'm interested but I don't know enough history in that era.
An earlier POD? Getting rid of both Spanish and Austrian overlords? Gives them time to integrate. Also means they may be able to get bits and pieces of Germany and France.
I'm interested but I don't know enough history in that era.
NapoleonXIV
Banned
The Empire of the United Nations is the outcome of the First World War, fought from 1560 to 1625 between the Netherlands, Holy Roman Empire, Spain, Portugal, China and Japan. A very long and complicated conflict, its main outcome was the independence of the Netherlands and their subsequent unity with the Tokugawa Republic into the United Nations, followed by the Japanese/Dutch conquest of the Phillipines and the expulsion of the Spanish and Portugeuse with the establishment of United Nations hegemony in most of East Asia.
Max Sinister
Banned
Dutch discover America first? Or they get control over North America, attract immigrants from many countries, the USA are Dutch-speaking ITTL and willing to protect their mother country?
What about the following?
Charles V abdicates dividing his territories between:
His son Philip receives Hispanic Territories (Castille, Aragon, Naples, Sicily and american terriories), his brother Ferdinand (receives the Habsburg territories in Austria, Milan and the Imperial crown) and his sister Margueritte receives Flanders (including the Netherlands and the French Comté).
Marguerite manages to negociate with the dutch rebels and they acknowledge her as Queen.
Charles V abdicates dividing his territories between:
His son Philip receives Hispanic Territories (Castille, Aragon, Naples, Sicily and american terriories), his brother Ferdinand (receives the Habsburg territories in Austria, Milan and the Imperial crown) and his sister Margueritte receives Flanders (including the Netherlands and the French Comté).
Marguerite manages to negociate with the dutch rebels and they acknowledge her as Queen.
In my dutch Australia thread I have the Dutch claiming Australia.
In a bit of research I discovered the in the early 1600's the Dustch had a religious war that drove alot of merchants schoolars and other out of holland just because they didn't believe their orthodox version of calvian belief.
Included were show trials and persecution that would have made the taliban proud.
If this could be avoided a large segment of the Dutch populous that was driven out could have remained and built a stronger Dutch state.
In a bit of research I discovered the in the early 1600's the Dustch had a religious war that drove alot of merchants schoolars and other out of holland just because they didn't believe their orthodox version of calvian belief.
Included were show trials and persecution that would have made the taliban proud.
If this could be avoided a large segment of the Dutch populous that was driven out could have remained and built a stronger Dutch state.
If Farnese's Union of Arras fails to reconquer Flanders and Brabant, then those will stay in the Union of Utrecht. That means the wealthies and most populated part of the Low Countries is part of the United Provinces. You potentially double the potential - at least.
Redbeard
Banned
In NW Germany there is an ethnic minorty called the Frisians, who in language and culture are very close to the Dutch, and in all of NW continental Europe a dialect called Platdeutsch, and being close to Dutch, was talked until a few hundreds years ago.
My idea of some PoDs:
1. Let the Dutch play a leading role in the 30years wars - something like a Dutch Gustavus Adolph. Not impossible with the right person considering that the Dutch had both more men and money than the Swedes.
2. After having given the Emperor a bloody nose the Dutch focus on their NW European Trade network and let the French and the Imperial drain each other pale.
3. The English are given a bloody nose too later in 17th century.
4. The King of France lines up for a bloody nose to in early 18th century, but with a full warchest the Dutch have no trouble in finding both allies and troops.
3. By mid 18th century what is presently Netherlands, Northern Belgium and NW Germany is the coherrent nation of Untied Provinces and speaking a Dutch-Platdeutsch like language. Denmark-Norway, Sweden and a number of north German (protestant) principalities are in effect vassals. In the Seven Years War the United Provinces, her vassals and allies (Austria and Scotland) effectively beat the alliance of Russia, France and England - on land, on the seas and in the colonies.
4. By early 19th century most of the vassals and some of the allies (Scotland)have been incorporated into the "United Provinces"
5. By mid 20th century the Dutch Empire has 120 mill. industrious inhabitants...
Regards
Steffen Redbeard
My idea of some PoDs:
1. Let the Dutch play a leading role in the 30years wars - something like a Dutch Gustavus Adolph. Not impossible with the right person considering that the Dutch had both more men and money than the Swedes.
2. After having given the Emperor a bloody nose the Dutch focus on their NW European Trade network and let the French and the Imperial drain each other pale.
3. The English are given a bloody nose too later in 17th century.
4. The King of France lines up for a bloody nose to in early 18th century, but with a full warchest the Dutch have no trouble in finding both allies and troops.
3. By mid 18th century what is presently Netherlands, Northern Belgium and NW Germany is the coherrent nation of Untied Provinces and speaking a Dutch-Platdeutsch like language. Denmark-Norway, Sweden and a number of north German (protestant) principalities are in effect vassals. In the Seven Years War the United Provinces, her vassals and allies (Austria and Scotland) effectively beat the alliance of Russia, France and England - on land, on the seas and in the colonies.
4. By early 19th century most of the vassals and some of the allies (Scotland)have been incorporated into the "United Provinces"
5. By mid 20th century the Dutch Empire has 120 mill. industrious inhabitants...
Regards
Steffen Redbeard
An Important change that should have happened is a different kind of goverment for the Netherlands. The stadholder had not much power, the rulers of the Netherlands were basicly the rich merchants in Holland and Zeeland. At the end of the war of independence against Spain, they dismantled the army and Navy and made them only strong enough to protect trading vessels.
If the Netherlands wants to become a superpower (or better stay, they were a superpower during the 17th century) they need a more centralized goverment.
If the Netherlands wants to become a superpower (or better stay, they were a superpower during the 17th century) they need a more centralized goverment.
Faeelin said:
Not yet, but its land distribution allowed consolidation to go two ways. I don't think a continuing line of Burgundian dukes would have been happy in France - too much opposition - but if they managed to branch out northwards, where they already held Flanders, Holland, Zeeland and large areas of the Rhineland, who's to stop them? The area is pretty much a power vacuum in the latter 1400s and 1500s. And by the time the whole sovereignisation process kicks in I'm sure the Dukes of Burgundy could find some bit oif territory outside the boundaries of the HRE to be kings in. OTL, the Netherlands managed to become independent in the Westphalian treaty, what's to stop a power like that from taking East Frisia, the upper Elbe and Weser, and maybe the northern Rhine valley along, for good measure? He'd already own them.
On OTL Britain's biggest advantage over France was financial. Her government had a better record of repaying loans so could borrow at lower rates. Also, she was industrialising and that made her economy larger per se than if she had been overwhelming agricultural like the French.Redbeard said:
If the Dutch can succour a large area with water power and keep foreign armies out of it (there isn't much return in a factory if it is repeatedly smashed up), she could outmanufacture Britain. After all they had already invented things like the limited company and stockmarket which the British copied for their industrial revolution.
Therefore from above.
1. They already were, but now do to a greater degree.
2. Good. British industrialisation too was initially financed by trade.
3. Do this earlier. Instead of a early knockout of James II, the Dutch and their Protestant allies fight a bloody Second Civil War against the Stuarts and their allies. The end result is a Stuart Scotland and Ireland and Monmouth as King of England. The alliance is now the Dutch, England and Austria verse France and Russia. Scotland doesn't intervene because of a Protestant revolt in Ireland.
4. Absolutely. During this this war, the Dutch conquer Canada and the French holdings in India. They also expand their American colonies instead of selling off New Amsterdam. In this war, the Scottish raid south, sacking many of the mills in northern England.
First step is that they unify the entire region of Holland(Netherlans, Belgium, and Luexembourg) under a single empire. The Dutch Empire then procedes to enter divided Germany, picking off the weak states one by one until they are in control of it all. This all happens in the 1600's. By 1700, the Dutch Empire and France go to war over colonial rights. Extra troops from Germany win the Dutch the war(as well as English support) and northern France falls. Take it from there....Faeelin said: