Dunkirk Mole hit during evacuation

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Deleted member 1487

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mole_(architecture)#World_War_II_Dunkirk_evacuation
I've been listening to a history podcast review of the new Dunkirk film and they're discussing the importance of the Dunkirk Mole to the evacuation after the port was wrecked by bombs, as ships didn't have to worry about the tide and could actually come up two abreast to evacuate men 1 mile out in to the sea. They also noted that the Luftwaffe never bombed it (or at least never hit it). What if they had targeted it and successfully knocked out the Mole? What happens to the evacuation then? Let's say it happens relative early, on the 28th of May. The East Mole was used to evacuate 200,000 men between 28th of May through to the end of the evacuation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunkirk_evacuation#28_May_.E2.80.93_4_June
What do the Brits do to cope with the Moles being rendered unusable and what happens if the evacuation then sees only about 50% of the men evacuated as compared to OTL?
 
I have no idea how much artillery the Germans could direct at it, and the beach- but maybe shelling would be enough to stop the evacuation process. I must admit I'm basing this off the movie, but why would artillery target ships, and not the mole and the beaches?
 

Deleted member 1487

I have no idea how much artillery the Germans could direct at it, and the beach- but maybe shelling would be enough to stop the evacuation process. I must admit I'm basing this off the movie, but why would artillery target ships, and not the mole and the beaches?
I was thinking a dive bomber hits actually. The 27th was good enough weather to drop leaflets.

UK-NWE-Flanders-xiii.jpg
 
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I was thinking a dive bomber hits actually. The 27th was good enough weather to drop leaflets.
How much damage would a bomber do to a concrete mole, crater it? I doubt it would have been taken out of action. I guess this si why it was not targeted.
 

Deleted member 1487

How much damage would a bomber do to a concrete mole, crater it? I doubt it would have been taken out of action. I guess this si why it was not targeted.
Several hits I'd imagine would blow enough of it to prevent the link with the mainland, which would significantly delay loading men.
 
Several hits I'd imagine would blow enough of it to prevent the link with the mainland, which would significantly delay loading men.
Just looked it up, further out it was wooden. Stupidity not to at least hit the wooden parts of the mole.
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mole_(architecture)#World_War_II_Dunkirk_evacuation
I've been listening to a history podcast review of the new Dunkirk film and they're discussing the importance of the Dunkirk Mole to the evacuation after the port was wrecked by bombs, as ships didn't have to worry about the tide and could actually come up two abreast to evacuate men 1 mile out in to the sea. They also noted that the Luftwaffe never bombed it (or at least never hit it). What if they had targeted it and successfully knocked out the Mole? What happens to the evacuation then? Let's say it happens relative early, on the 28th of May. The East Mole was used to evacuate 200,000 men between 28th of May through to the end of the evacuation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunkirk_evacuation#28_May_.E2.80.93_4_June
What do the Brits do to cope with the Moles being rendered unusable and what happens if the evacuation then sees only about 50% of the men evacuated as compared to OTL?

A mole is usually a sort of Stone or Concrete Breakwater - at Dunkirk the Mole was a 'breakwater' built from lots of rocks and was pressed into service as a makeshift pier - I don't think the Luftwaffe are going to be able to render it unusable - blast holes in it certainly and damage the wooden walkway yes (easily damaged if hit - but lots of Royal Engineers to fix it - and possibly enough idle labour in the region) - but I think it's unreasonable to expect the whole structure to be rendered unusable.

Also with all of the targets in the area why would they single out the mole? Its a thin hard to hit target - most of the bombs are going to hit the water and not damage it.

Also if the evacuation is slowed by increased attacks on the Mole then the defensive box does not collapse as quickly (due to the defenders evacuating) and the Siege (and by extension Op dynamo) goes on for longer
 
All righty, first, we get the Luftwaffe to drop their guard and play some Whack-a-Mole...next...
 
in the 1958 version of the Dunkirk film, they show the wooden part of the mole (I think there was a wooden bridge leading to the mole) being hit and soldiers falling into the water - the holes were then patched with ladders etc and the troops continued crossing. The 1958 version makes many attempts at realism and accuracy (they cut directly and seamlessly from real film to the made up version; one of the people on screen gets to play "himself"). You should see that film, it was on YouTube until recently. A better "whatif" is what if they had worse weather, then there would only have been evacuation from the mole (if that).
 
If you're having Stukas accurate enough to hit the mole, as they were, it would be more productive to hit the ships which were lying next to the mole as they would be far larger hindrance to loading and unloading.

(According to Nolan's movie the most significant factor delaying the evacuation was, that everyone had to have clean uniforms with perfect shaves and perfect haircuts. No wonder the evacuation took so long.)
 
(According to Nolan's movie the most significant factor delaying the evacuation was, that everyone had to have clean uniforms with perfect shaves and perfect haircuts. No wonder the evacuation took so long.)
This did not slow the evacuation but my then Sergeant father insisted on the same so that the assorted stragglers who had attached themselves to him on the march to Dunkirk reverted to being a unit of armed and accoutred soldiers under command and not a gaggle of scruffy refugees. Soldiers in disciplined units were easier to direct and load than random khaki clad flocking sheep in boots (not to denigrate those for whom circumstances had put them in the sheep category). His ad hoc platoon arrived properly dressed, accoutred and armed with 120 rounds each and fit to act in the defence cordon if called upon and arrived back in Blighty (filthy from hours in a collier) fit in all ways to defend against invasion.
 

Art

Monthly Donor
The Luftwaffe only sunk 4 destroyers out of 39 in the combat zone. That is not enough to get Churchill to cancel Dynamo. Ju-87s do not carry enough bomb load to sink British warships larger than corvettes, and German level bombers were terribly inaccurate. In fact, all level bombers trying to sink surface ships had a lousy record most of the time. Look up the B-17 strikes at Midway, not a single hit on an enemy warship or transport.
 

Deleted member 94680

The Luftwaffe only sunk 4 destroyers out of 39 in the combat zone. That is not enough to get Churchill to cancel Dynamo. Ju-87s do not carry enough bomb load to sink British warships larger than corvettes, and German level bombers were terribly inaccurate.

The Luftwaffe had a pretty shitty record in anti-shipping although the War, IIRC.
 

Errolwi

Monthly Donor
This did not slow the evacuation but my then Sergeant father insisted on the same so that the assorted stragglers who had attached themselves to him on the march to Dunkirk reverted to being a unit of armed and accoutred soldiers under command and not a gaggle of scruffy refugees. Soldiers in disciplined units were easier to direct and load than random khaki clad flocking sheep in boots (not to denigrate those for whom circumstances had put them in the sheep category). His ad hoc platoon arrived properly dressed, accoutred and armed with 120 rounds each and fit to act in the defence cordon if called upon and arrived back in Blighty (filthy from hours in a collier) fit in all ways to defend against invasion.

During the evacuation from Crete, formed units were given priority over individuals. Easier to handle on the evacuation beach, and more useful once evacuated.
 
The mole was a mile long. The last 600 meters of it was wooden the rest is stone.

All you get if you bomb a stone mole with a 500 pound bomb is a little crater that can either be walked across or boarded up.

All you get if you hit a light wooden part with a 500 pound bomb is a hole as the bomb passes through without detonating which can be boarded over. Smaller bombs fused right might properly blow up the wooden portion of the mole which would be helpful in denying it but the stone part I think is beyond the capabilities of the bombers to knock out of service.
 
This did not slow the evacuation but my then Sergeant father insisted on the same so that the assorted stragglers who had attached themselves to him on the march to Dunkirk reverted to being a unit of armed and accoutred soldiers under command and not a gaggle of scruffy refugees. Soldiers in disciplined units were easier to direct and load than random khaki clad flocking sheep in boots (not to denigrate those for whom circumstances had put them in the sheep category). His ad hoc platoon arrived properly dressed, accoutred and armed with 120 rounds each and fit to act in the defence cordon if called upon and arrived back in Blighty (filthy from hours in a collier) fit in all ways to defend against invasion.

I would not dispute issue of being clean and equipped whenever possible!

It was a pun to Nolan's movie, where everyone had perfect shave and haircut, even the stragglers who were in primary role in the "Mole" part of the movie. Everyone had perfect skin and teeth too. A Boy Band. Heading for One Direction - Home. But then again, there were just maybe a 3000 men in Dunkerque after all, judging from aerial scenes....

(And, judging from the lack of NCO's and officers on the beach in the movie practically everyone was a straggler, I guess. Well, I don't understand where that piece of crap has got so good critical reviews...)
 
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The 1958 version has been re-released, I think it is a far better film than Christopher Nolan's.

Also released is the 2004 BBC Docudrama which is also much better than the Nolan film.
 

Art

Monthly Donor
Indeed I have seen the 1958 version. . . The part where British entertainers are singing "We'll Hang Out The Washing On The Siegfried Line", and you watch the German advance. . .

Neither the British nor the French were prepared for modern war. Of course the Germans got lucky, 1940 was a perfect storm. If they had delayed 6 months, then the French rearmament would have been more complete, they would have hundreds of aircraft from America, and some of the dry rot in the army would be gone, I think.
 

Deleted member 1487

(According to Nolan's movie the most significant factor delaying the evacuation was, that everyone had to have clean uniforms with perfect shaves and perfect haircuts. No wonder the evacuation took so long.)
Yeah the Dunkirk scene from Atonement seemed much more realistic in that regard:
 
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