Dunkirk Disaster causes Spain and Soviet Union to join Axis.

The Germans would have the ME262 in 1945, which would wipe out obsolete British propeller driven planes. Speer estimated the Germans could have a nuke by 1947 if they devoted enough resources to it. At peace in 1942 Germany wouldn't have scuttled the nuke program and have the spare capacity to develop a nuclear weapon.
Gloster Meteor says hi.

As far as nuclear projects, scuttling the nuclear program was in no way the biggest problem. The biggest problem was that the Germans would've been patently unable to assemble enough fissile material due to the focus on using enriched uranium. I recommend reading this forum reproduction of a transcript of captured German nuclear physicists and their reactions to hearing about the Hiroshima bomb. This, I think, is a key passage:

3. All the guests assembled to hear the official announcement at 9 o'clock. They were completely stunned when they realized that the news was genuine. They were left alone on the assumption that they would discuss the position and the following remarks were made.:–

HARTECK: They have managed it either with mass-spectrographs on a large scale or else they have been successful with a photo-chemical process.

WIRTZ: Well I would say photo-chemistry or diffusion. Ordinary diffusion. They irradiate it with a particular wave-length. – (all talking together).

HARTECK: Or using mass-spectrographs in enormous quantities. It is perhaps possible for a mass-spectrograph to make one milligram in one day – say of '235'. They could make quite a cheap mass-spectrograph which, in very large quantities, might cost a hundred dollars. You could do it with a hundred thousand mass-spectrographs.

HEISENBERG: Yes, of course, if you do it like that; and they seem to have worked on that scale. 180,000 people were working on it.

HARTECK: Which is a hundred times more than we had.

BAGGE: GOUDSMIT led us up the garden path.

HEISENBERG: Yes, he did that very cleverly.

HAHN: CHADWICK and COCKROFT.

HARTECK: And SIMON too. He is the low temperature man.

KORSHING: That shows at any rate that the Americans are capable of real cooperation on a tremendous scale. That would have been impossible in Germany. Each one said that the other was unimportant.

GERLACH: You really can't say that as far as the uranium group is concerned. You can't imagine any greater cooperation and trust than there was in that group. You can't say that any one of them said that the other was unimportant.

KORSHING: Not officially of course.

GERLACH: (Shouting). Not unofficially either. Don't contradict me. There are far too many other people here who know.

HAHN: Of course we were unable to work on that scale.

HEISENBERG: One can say that the first time large funds were made available in Germany was in the spring of 1942 after that meeting with RUST when we convinced him that we had absolutely definite proof that it could be done.

BAGGE: It wasn't much earlier here either.

HARTECK: We really knew earlier that it could be done if we could get enough material. Take the heavy water. There were three methods, the most expensive of which cost 2 marks per gram and the cheapest perhaps 50 pfennigs. And then they kept on arguing as to what to do because no one was prepared to spend 10 million if it could be done for three million.

HEISENBERG: On the other hand, the whole heavy water business which I did everything I could to further cannot produce an explosive.

There are three key facts revealed in this section of the transcript: first, that uranium enrichment in the 1940s is exceptionally expensive in manpower, facilities, money, you name it. This is something obvious if you read up on the Manhattan Project. Even the US had a hell of a time assembling the resources needed to enrich enough uranium for the few gun-type bombs they made. Second, the Germans spent a lot of time and research on heavy water - and as one of their scientists admits, heavy water cannot produce a nuclear explosive. And third, and most importantly: there is no mention whatsoever of plutonium.

Plutonium was the key to mass-producing fission weapons. It's much easier to create weapons-grade plutonium than uranium with the technology of the time. It's what the Soviets stole to get their nuclear program moving. Without any consideration of plutonium, it's going to take many, many years before German scientists get out of the heavy water rathole and convince Nazi leadership to invest in uranium enrichment. And even then, they don't have the resources to make more than a single bomb every two years.

So, yes, I'm fairly certain that 1947 date is either ignorance on the part of Speer or the usual tablespoon of self-serving bullshit. The man was quite known for that...
 
The meteor isn't a match for the me-262 in 1945 and the US isn't turning Britain into airstrip one if the US is not at war.
The ME-262 isn't the trump card you appear to believe it is. It was an unreliable piece of junk that had engine issues out the wazoo even in the limited amounts it was created.
 
The meteor isn't a match for the me-262 in 1945 and the US isn't turning Britain into airstrip one if the US is not at war.
That was not my point. My point was that, whatever the relative performance of Me-262/Meteor/P-80, the '262s would have been heavily outnumbered.

And please, you've fast-forwarded to '45, but up to now failed to provide a logical flow of consequences from the 1940 POD to 1945.

Could you please expand on earlier events before jumping 5 years ?
 
Could you please expand on earlier events before jumping 5 years
Britain is in a cold war with the Axis from 1941 to 1945 and no formal peace treaty is executed. Hitler wont turn east until the Brits are completely cowed. All sides are in an arms race. Britain keeps hoping for a Nazi -Soviet conflagration. Britain collapses in weeks in 1945 through shock and awe of the V2s and Me262s. The war is over before the US and Soviets can think of intervening. The Soviets marvel yet again at the invincible Wehrmacht. Germany gets the Brits nuke research.
 
Britain is in a cold war with the Axis from 1941 to 1945 and no formal peace treaty is executed. Hitler wont turn east until the Brits are completely cowed. All sides are in an arms race. Britain keeps hoping for a Nazi -Soviet conflagration. Britain collapses in weeks in 1945 through shock and awe of the V2s and Me262s. The war is over before the US and Soviets can think of intervening. The Soviets marvel yet again at the invincible Wehrmacht. Germany gets the Brits nuke research.
How exactly would the Germans obtain British nuclear research. The British nuclear program was wisely based in Canada and as such out of reach of Germany.
 
A Dunkirk disaster must lead to German victory. Suppose a no halt order, 300k troops surrender in the Flanders pocket on June 3, 1940 after being mowed down on the beaches by Junkers for several days. Spain joins the war expecting Britain to make a quick peace. Fearing that the invincible German Wehrmacht will turn to the east the Soviets quickly request talks in late June for deepening the Nazi Soviet alliance and dismantling the effete British Empire. After several weeks of negotiations in July the Soviets agree to invade Persian Gulf, and Hitler agrees to keep troops out of Finland and pressure Turkey to accept Soviet warships through the Bosporus.

A Soviet and Italian pincer attack on the Middle East wipes out the British presence in the area. The Japanese begin taking out the British East Indies in December as the Soviets are landing paratroopers in Oman. The Japanese think that the all powerful Axis alliance (Germans, Italians, Spanish, and Soviets) will protect them so they don't fear US intervention. The Brits then seek an armistice in May 1941 after a critical portions of their empire have been taken off the map and the Germans are poised to launch the invasion deathblow to the British.
Again?
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Ultimately I think there still would have been an attack by one of them against the other.
Stalin would want to strike when Hitler has committed enough forces to invading Britain. If Hitler drags out an invasion of Britain then the Russian steam roller moves in. Hitler shows an aptitude for overwhelming Barbarossa style surprise attacks and the RAF is wiped out in the first two weeks by waves of ME262s and then a landing occurs. There is no extended bombing the enemy into submission scenario like the US did to Japan.
 
Stalin would want to strike when Hitler has committed enough forces to invading Britain. If Hitler drags out an invasion of Britain then the Russian steam roller moves in. Hitler shows an aptitude for overwhelming Barbarossa style surprise attacks and the RAF is wiped out in the first two weeks by waves of ME262s and then a landing occurs. There is no extended bombing the enemy into submission scenario like the US did to Japan.
But he failed so bad he blew his brains out as Soviet artillery shelled his bunker. Honest question, have you read any books, magazines, or Wikipedia articles about World War 2? Especially recent ones that have more accurate info?

And he cant get that against Britain, they have an ocean to cross, must mobilize, and the British can see the ships slowly steaming in.
 
Stalin would want to strike when Hitler has committed enough forces to invading Britain. If Hitler drags out an invasion of Britain then the Russian steam roller moves in. Hitler shows an aptitude for overwhelming Barbarossa style surprise attacks and the RAF is wiped out in the first two weeks by waves of ME262s and then a landing occurs. There is no extended bombing the enemy into submission scenario like the US did to Japan.
Okay, so this is Sea Lion 1945 edition.

Question: how in the sweet goddamn fuck are the Germans supposed to get this landing force past the entire Royal Navy?
 
Me 262’s? They seem to be able to smash the RAF in 2 weeks so maybe give them another week to sink the RN?
If Britain was outside the range of land based aircraft the RN might be a factor. The pacific war showed that Britain's collection of battleships would be almost defenseless when attacked by aircraft. Germany would also have four years to develop landing craft, submarine hunters, minesweepers and amphibious tanks needed for a successful invasion.
 
If Britain was outside the range of land based aircraft the RN might be a factor. The pacific war showed that Britain's collection of battleships would be almost defenseless when attacked by aircraft. Germany would also have four years to develop landing craft, submarine hunters, minesweepers and amphibious tanks needed for a successful invasion.
Yes, and they could stage the invasion out of the Frisian Islands! Genius!
 
If Britain was outside the range of land based aircraft the RN might be a factor. The pacific war showed that Britain's collection of battleships would be almost defenseless when attacked by aircraft. Germany would also have four years to develop landing craft, submarine hunters, minesweepers and amphibious tanks needed for a successful invasion.
While Britain has 4 years to develop anti-invasion measures?

I have engaged more in this thread than I have in the last 3, and it is probably a poor choice on my part. There are, I believe, some well researched and written TL's on this forum that improve the lot of the Axis powers and do not require the reader to completely ignore logical consequence to reach their endpoint. If you are looking for a way for the Germans to win, perhaps try reading them to get some ideas?
 
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