Dunblane Massacre 1998

After the Dunblane massacre in 1996, British politicians, chasing the Dunblane sympathy vote, decided to outlaw all handguns. May this not have happened if the massacre had occured after the 1997 General Election, rather than before? If handguns were not banned, might this have had an effect on crime in Britain?
 

Grey Wolf

Donor
George Carty said:
After the Dunblane massacre in 1996, British politicians, chasing the Dunblane sympathy vote, decided to outlaw all handguns. May this not have happened if the massacre had occured after the 1997 General Election, rather than before? If handguns were not banned, might this have had an effect on crime in Britain?

I can't see how it would - the effect of the ban was to keep them out of the hands of nutters like Hamilton or Ryan who flip and decide to blow away part of their neighbourhoods. Handguns have never been used as a deterrent to crime, and criminals get theirs via illegal routes so any ban doesn't really affect them in the first place

Grey Wolf
 
just out of curiousity, what is the status of gun control in Britain? Is there a total ban on civilians owning handguns? rifles? have them with permits only?
 

Grey Wolf

Donor
I don't know... Ordinary people aren't allowed them, don't even consider them. Farmers can for pest control. Beyond that there are sporting/hunting weapons that have to be kept in a secure locked box

Grey Wolf
 
Guns guns guns

Handguns are a no no, you pretty much can't have one unless its through a gun club and under .22 caliber. Anything automatic is illegal. Shotguns are allowed, but only under strict license. We don't really have a lobby group similar to the NRA (thankfully) so gun control legislation was easier to put through
 
Ok.. no handguns, shotguns by license only... what about hunting rifles? Does Britain have anything like the black powder enthusiasts we do here? Any restrictions on those weapons?
 
In Britain there's a general consenus between the government, the police and criminals that the only people who should have guns are the government, the police and the criminals, ordinary law abiding members of the public being totally untrustworthy to possess such dangerous items.

The current state of play regarding firearms is something like this:

Automatic firearms: These have never been legal in Britain, (or if they were they became a prohibited weapon before the Second World War).

Self loading rifles: Things like the AR-15, the SLR, the Garand and the Ruger Mini 14, these were all banned after the Hungerford massacre in 1987.

Bolt action rifles: Actually including all mechanical action weapons, bolt action weapons like the SMLE or the latest polymer stock sniper's rifle, lever action "carbines" like the Winchester, straight pull bolt action versions of the above mentioned self loaders, it is legal for members of the public to own these, though they have to kept in a secure "gun safe". Interestingly after the handgun ban a new type of began to become popular with the former pistol shooters, the sawnoff lever action carbine. Basically a Winchester with the butt stock remove to leave only a pistol grip and the barrel and tube magazine reduced in length to six or so inches. This seemed to cause some surprise in government circles as people who had been shooting for years actually found a way to continue dispite their elected representatives making it quite clear that they objected to such practices!

Shotguns: Also still legal, though only doubles barreled ones, pump action and semi auto models being made illegal after Hungerford. I believe that up until Dunblane all you needed to legally own a shotgun was a "shotgun certifcate", a sort of lower class firearms licence, since then the requirements have been stiffened.

Handguns: It is illegal for a member of the public to possess a handgun of any type or calibre in England, Scotland or Wales. I believe there are certain expections to this, i.e. muzzel loading single shot weapons, blackpowder revolvers, (the early type were you load each chamber in the cylinder with powder and then a ball before placeing a percussion cap on the nipple of each cylinder) and bolt action target pistols that fire rifle ammo. Otherwise pistols from .22 to .45acp are banned, even Britain's Olympic and Commonwealth Games pistol teams have to go to the Channel Islands to practice. You'll notice that Northern Island is left out of the above. In the province which has some of the strictest guns laws within the UK members of various "special groups" are allowed to own handguns for personnel protection. These special groups are generally people who are either former Loyalist or Republican terrorists or those linked to them.

The police are responsible for issueing firearms licences and anyone wanting one must be a member of a gun club and provide a "valid reason" to own a firearm. Self protection is not considered a valid reason and to request a licence for such would probably get you a night in the cells and the undivided attention of a couple of CID officers who'd be most interested in "who you want to shoot".

Since the handgun ban gun crime has risen in the UK, as has the presence of armed police on our streets with some forces now mounting regular armed patrols in high gun crime areas (in Britain it is the local senior officers who decide when and where a police force is armed not local or national government) and there is some talk that Britain will have an armed police force witin twenty years. I doubt the gun ban has effected the amount of armed crime in any way, the rise being caused by an increase in drug related crime rather than a suddenly dissarmed populace.
 
Interestingly, the US has similar views on muzzle loading black powder weapons, in that they simply aren't regulated at all. I have three of them that I got through mail order... any cartridge weapon cannot be sold that way; they have to go through a licensed dealer. Apparently, muzzle loaders aren't considered to be 'real' weapons, although you could certainly hurt somebody (especially at close range, as muzzle loaders tend to be big bore). I admit, it would be hard to go on a shooting rampage with a muzzle loader... everyone would run away when you stopped to reload :)
 
David Howery said:
I admit, it would be hard to go on a shooting rampage with a muzzle loader... everyone would run away when you stopped to reload :)

Errmm, this being the States wouldn't at least a third of pull out their own guns and shoot you rather than just run away? (Or at least try to. I've developed a strong suspicion that the reason Americans are so obsessed with the .45 and so denigrating of the 9mm is because they are such bad shots they need several of the larger bullets to achieve the sort of results the rest of can achieve with a single smaller one. Aim, then fire idiots!)

I didn't mean to impy that muzzle loaders aren't regulated here, (the British government and police really want to regulate every object there is that bears even remotely resembles a gun), just that they are permitted.
 
uh, 99.9% of Americans don't carry firearms, in spite of the fact that so many of us own them.. we leave them home. Why do you think all those notorious work and school shooting rampages cause so many casulties? It's because the nut has a gun and all the victims don't. It's not like anyone can simply choose to carry a gun all the time... you do have to have a special permit to carry a concealed weapon. Not to mention, it's flat out illegal to take guns into a lot of places, permit or not....
 
I should have said go into their houses and get their own guns while you were reloading. Mind you the way the pro-gunners on some boards go on you'd think modern day America was like the Old West but with less visible holsters.
 
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David Howery said:
uh, 99.9% of Americans don't carry firearms, in spite of the fact that so many of us own them.. we leave them home. Why do you think all those notorious work and school shooting rampages cause so many casulties? It's because the nut has a gun and all the victims don't. It's not like anyone can simply choose to carry a gun all the time... you do have to have a special permit to carry a concealed weapon. Not to mention, it's flat out illegal to take guns into a lot of places, permit or not....
I have a Concealed Weapon Permit and wear a side arm most of the time the reason for this is like my mother says She live under one goverment that made her ilegal to be a citizen and took her faimly of to the camps we will not be draged out of are homes this time . I also belive that you should own any weapon that you can tow behind your veihical . An armed Pop is a free pop.
Yes I'm very right wing as some people would say but I belive every one should be reposibale for there own actions and goverment should stay out of there lives .Rember firearms don't kill people people kill people
 
well, I don't have any real statistics on this, but I'd bet that the majority of Americans don't own guns of any kind. Of the gun owners, few of them have permits for concealed weapons. It's not as if you could stop 10 random people on the street and find that half of them have guns on them. It kind of depends on what part of the country you are discussing too. From what I've read, handgun ownership is more common in the big urban areas. In the Rocky Mountain states, where hunting is extremely popular, a way higher % of the population owns firearms, but they tend to be rifles and shotguns rather than handguns. Growing up in rural MT, I was pretty used to having 6 rifles and 2 shotguns in our house... and that was a lot less than a lot of our neighbors had....
 
I also belive that you should own any weapon that you can tow behind your veihical .

Not quite sure how much use a howitzer would be in a mugging but that might just be because of my restrained English character.

Anyway you're quite right that people kill people, guns just allow them to do it more effciently. Which is precisely what they were designed for, what annoys me is the respective wings of politicians who believe that the moment you pick a gun up you either become the moral equivilent of the Founding Fathers, ready to fight tyranny and injustice in all it's forms or a raging psycho who'll kill his nieghbours at the first oppotunity. A gun is an inanimate object, it's use is entirely dependent on whoever holds it.
 
My applause, Ward.

"Not quite sure how much use a howitzer would be in a mugging but that might just be because of my restrained English character."

Not much use in a mugging, but what about large-scale rioting. In LA in 1991 (right?), huge numbers (we're talking 50+, with some crowds running into the 100s) of inner-city gangster-types laid siege to the Korean-owned businesses.

The Koreans had a lot of handguns and some rifles. Though in many cases a few warning shots (or the lead looter taken down as an example) drove off many rioters, others were overrun with sheer #s. Give them howitzers and perhaps they'd have been able to have their businesses and (some of) their lives.
 
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