Dueling

Aldroud

Banned
MrP said:
On a vaguely related note, sorry for unreasonably flying off the handle at you last week. Lack of sleep, I think it was. :eek:

Ummm...okay. Don't remember, so all is forgiven. I don't take internet debates that seriously, so nub worries mate. :D

Hell, I've been on a Vicadin and OxyCodon diet for the last week myself. Makes the head a little fuzzy.
 
Well as mentioned by others German students are still at it today (By the way LordKalvan I was under the impression the Nazis initally tried to stop it before deciding to tolerate it).
Also given traditional Duelling persisted in Italy at least until the 1930s it is well and truelly possible for it to continue to the current day.
 
Fom what I can see, western societies still do duel, but they do it with lawyers, not swords.

Pre WW2 there were just about zero "frivolous" law suits. Now days people reach for a lawyer and sue over the colors a drain pipe is painted, they trip over thier feet etc.

Seems to be a modern equivalent of dueling over 'insults to ones honor'.
 
Satyrane said:
I suppose an analogy might be extreme abusive sexual practice. There was some debate a few years back in the UK about the legality of consensual S&M in which one or both partners suffer actual bodily harm. (IIRC it's still illegal in the UK even if both sides are entirely in their right minds and consent to it.)

I daresay the same law would apply to voluntary duelling societies: no matter how many waivers you signed, you'd still be liable for ABH or other offences.

Incidentally, I was a second at a mock-duel at uni. Two members of the fencing club met at dawn on King's Bridge and played twelve hits (in full gear, so no physical danger). The loser bought us all breakfast - was good fun! :)
In a way you're right: just to bring the analogy to an extreme, no one can kill someone else with impunity, even if the succumbent gave a waiver. OTOH, I would assume that police would have to automatically prosecute (or whatever the word is) only if the prognosis of the wounded party is beyond a certain length. To make another analogy, if a girl scratch another during a scuff, she has not to be tried automatically (unless there is a sworn complaint from the injured party). Therefore duelling would be theoretically illegal, but in practice might be tolerated. Exactly like prostitution.
 
Cockroach said:
Well as mentioned by others German students are still at it today (By the way LordKalvan I was under the impression the Nazis initally tried to stop it before deciding to tolerate it).
Also given traditional Duelling persisted in Italy at least until the 1930s it is well and truelly possible for it to continue to the current day.

Probably you are right: Nazis were not supporters of the Mensur in their own time (it was mostly a practice favored by Junkers, and aristocrats. Or upper bourgeoisie who wanted to put on airs). However, after the war it took a rightist connotation, and was appropriated by neo-nazis.

Duelling in Italy effectively ended before WW1; like in Germany, fascist party in Italy was not in favor of an aristocratic practice (even if Mussolini himself - in his editor persona - had a few duels in the early 1900s). Even then, it was mostly a formalised performance, always to first blood (even if accidents can always happen). After WW2, it is completely non-existent (I will not accept to include under duelling a fist-cuff or even a knife fight outside of a disco or a pub)
 
Aldroud said:
Hmm, didn't hear it from him. Actually heard it at the Harley ralley in Sturgis. Someone was commenting on how nice everyone was, someone else chimed in with that as the reason.
If I remember right, it was said in Starship Troopers (possible alternatives might be Time Enough for Love or Farnham's Freehold), but it is 100% Robert Heinlein. Anyway I was joking :p
 
Narratio said:
Fom what I can see, western societies still do duel, but they do it with lawyers, not swords.

Pre WW2 there were just about zero "frivolous" law suits. Now days people reach for a lawyer and sue over the colors a drain pipe is painted, they trip over thier feet etc.

Seems to be a modern equivalent of dueling over 'insults to ones honor'.

Swords would be more civilized.:cool:
 
LordKalvan said:
If I remember right, it was said in Starship Troopers (possible alternatives might be Time Enough for Love or Farnham's Freehold), but it is 100% Robert Heinlein. Anyway I was joking :p

I'll have to read through Starship Troopers again. Or go to wikiquote.
 
In any Juristiction in which there is no specific law relating to dueling then I think folk would get away with it. Surely each party would be able to plead self defence.
 
NapoleonXIV said:
Lincoln was challenged to a duel. He at first specified the place as a cow pasture and the weapons as cowpies.
Suppose the challenger had accepted that?
 
Wozza said:
What do they use to duel with?

I know two people who had a duel with swords, although it was only "to the pinking,"

Wikipedia explains academic fencing quite well:

wikipedia said:
"Academic fencing

Academic fencing or Mensur fencing is the traditional kind of fencing practiced by some student corporations (Studentenverbindungen) in Germany, Austria, Flanders and Switzerland.

Technique

Academic fencing differs considerably from non-academic fencing. The participants, or Paukanten, use heavy sharp sabres, the so-called Mensurschläger (or simply Schläger; the plural form is identical to the singular form) and are protected by a chainmail shirt and gauntlets, padding on the throat and right arm, and steel goggles with a nose guard. They fence at arm's length and stand more or less immobile, attempting to hit the unprotected areas of their opponent's face and head. Flinching or dodging is not allowed, the goal being less to avoid injury than to endure it stoically. A doctor is generally present to attend to injuries and abort the fight if necessary.

The scar resulting from a hit is called a Schmiss (German for a "smite"), or Renommierschmiss (bragging scar), and was regarded as a badge of honor: a form of ritual scarification up to the first half of the 20th century. Wounds were typically sewn up rather crudely then, in order to provoke scarring. Today the fencers prefer the work of thoracic surgeons and other physicians, successfully avoiding unnecessary scars.


Academic fencing in Germany was temporarily abolished, along with the Studentenverbindungen, during the Third Reich, but today it is still practised by hundreds of traditional Studentenverbindung fraternities."


I know a couple of guys who do it, no big deal although I wouldn´t do it myself.
And it´s more of a ritualised sporting event they eagerly train for, the connection of with duels in the classic sense is very indirect.
 
Derek Jackson said:
In any Juristiction in which there is no specific law relating to dueling then I think folk would get away with it. Surely each party would be able to plead self defence.
Under UK law, at least, self-defence only applies in very specific circumstances: IIRC you must have an honestly held belief that you or another person are in immediate danger of physical harm, and you must prove that your response was unpremeditated and proportionate to that danger. Two people fighting with swords might have a job convincing the police of this! :)

Carrying firearms or uncovered blades above a certain length is also illegal.
 
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