Duchy into a Kingdom?

(....)

Not exactly. There was no steadfast rule saying that the HRE had the authority to upgrade anyone below his rank. In fact that idea is mostly a load of tosh. In the case of Burgundy famously trying to be made into a Kingdom it was a gambit to declare independence from France with the backing of a powerful state - to do it alone would bring the wrath of other Kings, seeing the Burgundians as upstarts; the HRE supporting it would mean that most places would accept it. Secondly, the only times that HREmperors really upgraded nobles to higher ranks was when those nobles were direct vassals of the Emperor. It was any noble's remit, whether Emperor, King or Baron, to make another man his vassal and grant him a title beneath his own, so long as it were as a noble of his own realm. There was nothing saying the HRE had the power to do so outside of his own realm.

Let's not forget that the dukes of Burgundy also held territories in the Holy Roman Empire, like the duchy of Lothier, Brabant and Limburg, duchy of Luxemburg, free county of Burgundy (Franche Comté), county of Holland, Zeeland and Hainaut etc., so any promotion could and probably would only include a territory in the Empire, but the duchy of Burgundy (and probably Flanders and Artois too) would (at least at first) remain a nominal part of France. In most propositions of such a kingdom all other imperial territories held by the Burgundian dukes would have been made a part of this kingdom. Instead of Burgundy, Lotharingia, Frisia and even Brabant (like Lorraine a successor of Lotharingia) were proposed; and another concession was the right of female inheritance or at least through the female line.
This last provision would IMHO been a more likely way for the Habsburg emperor to get a extra royal title in the empire, then if he would have created one for himself.
When Charles the Bold was negotiating with Frederic III about his Royal promotion, they were also discussing the possible marriage between the heiress of Charles (Mary) and the heir of Frederic (Maximilian) and it was unlikely for Charles to get a heir, unless he would survive and has the chance to remarry in old age.
 
Wouldn't the fact that the Emperor himself was already King of Arles have made the elevation of Burgundy a bit difficult?
 
Wouldn't the fact that the Emperor himself was already King of Arles have made the elevation of Burgundy a bit difficult?

No because the rule, at this time, was that the king must renounce to all his others titles to have the right to be king. At this period it was brand new to preserve these titles to the same person, so it could be credible that the german nobilty and a more powerful Charles the Bold (having sucessfully peacified the Aquitaine) could force the german to recognize a Burgundy Kingdom
 
No because the rule, at this time, was that the king must renounce to all his others titles to have the right to be king. At this period it was brand new to preserve these titles to the same person, so it could be credible that the german nobilty and a more powerful Charles the Bold (having sucessfully peacified the Aquitaine) could force the german to recognize a Burgundy Kingdom
Still? Would he given his old lands to relatives/allies and then just held whatever came with the crown already?
 
Still? Would he given his old lands to relatives/allies and then just held whatever came with the crown already?
It's one of the major characteristic of pre-feudal western Europa. If a lord want to have a superior position, royal or not, he had to give his formers land to someone else.
 
It's one of the major characteristic of pre-feudal western Europa. If a lord want to have a superior position, royal or not, he had to give his formers land to someone else.

But this was in the 1400s?

Is there any actual law regarding this?
 
No because the rule, at this time, was that the king must renounce to all his others titles to have the right to be king. At this period it was brand new to preserve these titles to the same person, so it could be credible that the german nobilty and a more powerful Charles the Bold (having sucessfully peacified the Aquitaine) could force the german to recognize a Burgundy Kingdom

I think we're talking about different time periods here. You're thinking of the Carolingian era, but I was referring to Valois Burgundy, and the title of King of Arles/ Burgundy that the Holy Roman Emperors held at the time.

Was Frederick III actually planning to transfer one of his own titles to (Duke) Charles, before deciding against it? It seems unlikely, because the Arles/ Burgundy (even if it didn't have much relevance on the ground, as it were) crown was one of the three (along with those of Germany and Italy) usually held by the reigning Emperor.
 
I think we're talking about different time periods here. You're thinking of the Carolingian era, but I was referring to Valois Burgundy, and the title of King of Arles/ Burgundy that the Holy Roman Emperors held at the time.

Was Frederick III actually planning to transfer one of his own titles to (Duke) Charles, before deciding against it? It seems unlikely, because the Arles/ Burgundy (even if it didn't have much relevance on the ground, as it were) crown was one of the three (along with those of Germany and Italy) usually held by the reigning Emperor.

Titles mentioned in negotiations with Philip the Good and Charles the Bold were Lotharingia, Frisia, Brabant and Burgundy, but Burgundy could have been an elevation of the Free County of Burgundy (Franche Comté de Bourgogne), just as Brabant would have been a elevation of the duchy of Brabant; and Lotharingia and Frisia would be restoring former kingdoms (especially Frisia would even at that time been semi legendary). In those suggestions it was also offered to attach all their other imperial possessions to such a kingdom.
 
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