Who are the Druze
Druze Star.jpg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Druze
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closed_community#Religious_and_cultural_communities
Since the 11th century, the Druze have been a closed community. Members of the Druze can only marry within the religion. Druze does not accept converts

Does any similar communities like the Druze exist in OTL Europe?
Where there a chance that a similar community to the Duze could develop in Europe? Whats would be the most likely area and time?
 
Well, there were the Jewish people of course, who had their own parallel societies.

Perhaps the Cathars, if they had survived?

The Cagots are another group that was shunned, although that was not their choice - they tried to participate in the mainstream culture but were hated by the majority, for reasons that are still not clear. Maybe somehow they could have found a leader than caused them to turned inward and develop their own society?
 
Well, there were the Jewish people of course, who had their own parallel societies.

Perhaps the Cathars, if they had survived?

The Cagots are another group that was shunned, although that was not their choice - they tried to participate in the mainstream culture but were hated by the majority, for reasons that are still not clear. Maybe somehow they could have found a leader than caused them to turned inward and develop their own society?
Did not these groups accept converts? The druze stopped accepting converts in the 11th century, which is the main differene between them and other sects. I wonder what made the Druze close off like that and if some sect in Europe might get the same idea?
 
Did not these groups accept converts? The druze stopped accepting converts in the 11th century, which is the main differene between them and other sects. I wonder what made the Druze close off like that and if some sect in Europe might get the same idea?

I'm not sure if the medieval European Jews accepted converts, but they did not do much proselytizing.

The other two are just alternate timeline speculation on my part. The Cathars were wiped out so we can't really know how a surviving society would have fared. I was thinking that maybe they could survive as a semi-secret faith.

The Cagots were not a religious group at all but were treated poorly by everyone, and I propose a timeline where some Cagot prophet emerges and leads them in a new direction.
 

Skallagrim

Banned
There are various options. For as direct a comparison as possible, you need a Christian sect that is strongly influenced by Platonism and (Gnostic/Neoplatonist) mysticism, which then splits off from mainline Christianity to such an extent that it becomes its own thing. It doesn't need to be ethnically basis: the Druze weren't. They isolated themselves to keep their teachings "pure", and to keep them secret-- that last bit in part to avoid persecution.

The obvious call is Catharism, but I raised that suggestion in the thread about Cagots and surviving Catharism has been done before. So my suggestion here will be: some branch of radical Joachimites. Joachim if fiore got in trouble for his beliefs in OTL, and particularly because certain followers of his misinterpreted him and took too radical a stance. He had a distinct mysticist bent, which could easily inspire a group of followers who believed they possessed esoteric knowledge. OTL movements inspired by his views (most famously the Amalricians, the Dulcinians and the Brethren of the Free Spirit) were persecuted and destroyed in OTL, which would certainly prompt an ATL mysticist group of Neo-Joachimites to enact a policy of keeping their views very secret.

Other options include:

-- Some version/evolution/split-off of Paulicianism that goes big with the Gnostic influences and the esoteric mysticism.

-- Surviving Bogomils, likewise evolving into a secretive cult that closes itself off to avoid trouble.

-- Waldensians who don't get sucked into the broader Protestant movement, but spin off into their own distinct movement before the Reformation begins.

-- A late entry: some kind of proto-Reformationist movement with strong Platoniost influences that comes about due to the survival of Girolamo Savonarola. (The key difficulty here is that even if you remove the Borgias, who killed him in OTL, any other Pope will still consider him he pest who needs to be wiped away. The man was just making too much trouble to be tolerated. Yet you could imagine a movement based on his ideas surviving by fleeing Italy in some ATL, perhaps.)

-- A wild suggestion: the Rosicrucians (or some other band of Hemreticist mystics) make it big in the 17th century, and manage to become a tolerated cult in some part of Germany or something.
 
I think if you slowed down christianisation of Europe and made it more tolerant you could get a pagan offshoot that becomes endogamic.
Actual Christian sects are harder due to the conversion factor.
Jewish sects might be easier due to their isolation amongst Christianity and Islam - some Hasidim might already be there.
 

Skallagrim

Banned
I think if you slowed down christianisation of Europe and made it more tolerant you could get a pagan offshoot that becomes endogamic.
Actual Christian sects are harder due to the conversion factor.
Jewish sects might be easier due to their isolation amongst Christianity and Islam - some Hasidim might already be there.

It's easier, but they're less of a direct analogy, since the Druze started as a sect within Ismailism (and thus of Shia Islam), which only later spun off into a syncretic religion with some strong Gnostic and mystic influences. Something that is truly analogous to that would have to start off as a Christian sect, moving beyond the scope of Christianity later on, as it absorbed more mystical tenets etc.
 
I think if you slowed down christianisation of Europe and made it more tolerant you could get a pagan offshoot that becomes endogamic.
Perhaps if some Baltic pagans are pushed similarily to OTL, but some decide to follow a underground religion? A underground religion that might be only known to people born within it. This religion might retreat to isolated areas in the Baltics, a swamp or a forest perhaps?
Actual Christian sects are harder due to the conversion factor.
Good point.
Jewish sects might be easier due to their isolation amongst Christianity and Islam - some Hasidim might already be there.
OTL Jewish sects do accept converts and also did in the medieval period. The Hasidim has a special lifestyle that makes conversion difficult but it is not illegal for outsiders to become Hasidic. For example Hasidics accept donor sperm of non-Hasidics showing that they do accept some kind intermingling.
https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/conversion-history-middle-ages/
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-religious-and-using-a-sperm-donor-1.5416675
http://www.atheistrepublic.com/news/druze-population-decline-won-t-marry-outside-religion
 
Last edited:
There are various options. For as direct a comparison as possible, you need a Christian sect that is strongly influenced by Platonism and (Gnostic/Neoplatonist) mysticism, which then splits off from mainline Christianity to such an extent that it becomes its own thing. It doesn't need to be ethnically basis: the Druze weren't. They isolated themselves to keep their teachings "pure", and to keep them secret-- that last bit in part to avoid persecution.
You are right.
The obvious call is Catharism, but I raised that suggestion in the thread about Cagots and surviving Catharism has been done before. So my suggestion here will be: some branch of radical Joachimites. Joachim if fiore got in trouble for his beliefs in OTL, and particularly because certain followers of his misinterpreted him and took too radical a stance. He had a distinct mysticist bent, which could easily inspire a group of followers who believed they possessed esoteric knowledge. OTL movements inspired by his views (most famously the Amalricians, the Dulcinians and the Brethren of the Free Spirit) were persecuted and destroyed in OTL, which would certainly prompt an ATL mysticist group of Neo-Joachimites to enact a policy of keeping their views very secret.
Intresting scenario. Do you think this neo-Joachimites will try to keep their views secret by isolating themselfes in difficult areas to access? Or might they live next to Catholics and themselfes be nominally Catholic while keeping a secret faith? How will the neo-Joachimites keep their views secret? What might a policy with that goal look like?
 

Skallagrim

Banned
Intresting scenario. Do you think this neo-Joachimites will try to keep their views secret by isolating themselfes in difficult areas to access? Or might they live next to Catholics and themselfes be nominally Catholic while keeping a secret faith? How will the neo-Joachimites keep their views secret? What might a policy with that goal look like?

Joachim himself was very much into eschatology, which lends itself wonderfully to mystical interpretations. These hypothetical neo-Joachimites may believe that they know the truth about the coming apocalypse (which they wouldn't have to give a set date, because Joachim was vague on that). Their beliefs might reflect his utopian vision of a "monastic people", which no longer needs a Church hierarchy because they are a "lay church", comprised of all society, as it were. Most likely, they'd seek out remote locales and live in rather monastic conditions. It would appeal to the supposed virtue of asceticism, which bring one closer to the true, non-physical world (or so Joachim argued).

Their goal would probably be to await the end of this fallen world, preparing themselves to form the core of God's true chosen people, those with a true understanding of his Grace, blah, blah... You know the drill. Nothing truly spectacular. They just think they know the secret, and that their way of living puts them closer to God. Quite harmless, but the fun bit is that they'd form self-enclosed communities, eventually turning their religious group into a distinct people. Rather reflects the Druze, I think.
 
Who are the Druze
View attachment 384443
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Druze
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closed_community#Religious_and_cultural_communities
Since the 11th century, the Druze have been a closed community. Members of the Druze can only marry within the religion. Druze does not accept converts

Does any similar communities like the Druze exist in OTL Europe?
Where there a chance that a similar community to the Duze could develop in Europe? Whats would be the most likely area and time?
Greek paganism Services in Pocketstraße in Former Spartan territory until 10th Century. Maniots arethe whorshippers called.Vut Not an Organizer Religion though, only remaining pagan culture nobody talks about anymore. Otherwise Samaritarians, who like Jews believe in the Old Testament, today only a Smalltalk fellowship existist.
 
Top