Drexler's DAP Without Hitler

The conventional view (which I myself have expressed in the past) is that the German Workers' Party (Deutsche Arbeiterpartei or DAP), led by Anton Drexler, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anton_Drexler would have amounted to nothing if Adolf Hitler hadn't joined it in September 1919.

I'm wondering if anyone could successfully challenge this view, and argue that the DAP, even without Hitler, could have become an important part of the German völkisch movement. It is true that the party was small when Hitler joined it, but not quite as small as he claimed: he was the seventh member, not of the party itself but of its steering committee. (OTOH, the fact that his party card listed him as member number 555 is also a bit misleading: for "image" reasons, the membership numbers began at 501 and were then alphabetically assigned.)

In any event, despite Hitler's claims in Mein Kampf about wrangling for days about whether to join the DAP, his Reichswehr superior, Captain Karl Mayr later claimed that he had ordered Hitler to join the DAP--and provided him with funds--in order to further the party's growth. https://books.google.com/books?id=nV-N10gyoFwC&pg=PA127 Now this seems to indicate confidence by Captain Mayr in Hitler's political-propaganda abilities. But it also indicates some confidence in the DAP's growth potential: otherwise why have Hitler join it instead of some other radical-right group? And is it not possible that the Reichswehr would have helped the DAP in some other way without Hitler? Might Röhm for example, have joined the party, even without Hitler, and provided a link between the party and larger "patriotic associations"? Some other early DAP members like Dietrich Eckart (who was speaking at DAP meetings in the summer of 1919, before Hitler joined) had connections with well-to-do Munich "society."

So some important ingredients for potential DAP growth were there, even without Hitler. OTOH, there is the question whether without Hitler the DAP, even if it expanded somewhat, would then be swallowed up by a merger with a larger völkisch group. (In OTL there were discussions of a merger between the DAP and the larger DSP--the Deutschsozialistiche Partei, or German-Socialist Party. But Hitler put an end to merger negotiations, no doubt fearing that any merger would mean the end of his dominance in the smaller but more tightly-knit DAP. Ultimately Hitler did get many DSP members into the NSDAP, as it was now called, on his own terms--especially through the adherence of Julius Streicher, one of the founder-members of the DSP, whose decision to join up with Hitler in 1922 greatly strengthened the Nazis in Franconia.)
 
Very interesting discussion. Handwaving Hitler out of the DAP (and Captain Mayr's claim seems a little off to me*), it does seem like the direction of travel is for an eventual merger of the DSP with the DAP (what it would be called I'm not sure. Perhaps the DSP given the the DSP was the larger party, or maybe the German Socialist and Workers' Party - DSAP....I doubt it would end up as the SDAP or being called the NSDAP). How would that have fared? Well it may have had potential, but it doesn't sound like it could win the reins of power. However it could likely garner some seats in the Reichstag and shift the political discourse towards the right generally. At least in the late 1920s and early 1930s (assuming it survived until then).


*elsewhere I have read that Mayr claimed that General Ludendorff personally ordered Mayr to have Hitler join the DAP. I suspect the truth is somewhere in between - likely Hitler requested to be able to join the DAP, Mayr considered it and because it was against army regulations for army personnel to engage in political activity, he punted the request up to his superiors (probably along with his recommendation that this be approved because of the potential for better monitoring of the DAP) and it came to Ludendorff who then approved it and sent the approval back down to Mayr who then granted Hitler's request to join as now a directive to join.
 
Contrary to its name, the DSP was another far right nationalist party, albeit with some socialist and volkish elements.
Considering Hiter vetoed a merger, it seems there are some differences between the DSP and the Nazis.
How far the new party would go is anyone's guess but I doubt the Beerhall Putsch would happen.

On nother note, there's also the possiblity that this new party could get folded into the DNVP under Hugenberg. The DNVP were monarchists though, so that could be a major obstacle.

With the DNP's connections to the Volklish Work Community, a non nazi far right movement, I'd say we're definitely looking at another Fascistesque party in the mid term. There was a proposed merger between the DAP, the DSP and the Volkish Work community but Hitler scotched it.

Questions of ideology aside, the new party would be bigger with better infrastructure than the Nazis were at the time of their founding IOTL.
 
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Contrary to its name, the DSP was another far right nationalist party, albeit with some socialist and volkish elements.
Considering Hiter vetoed a merger, it seems there are some differences between the DSP and the Nazis.
How far the new party would go is anyone's guess but I doubt the Beerhall Putsch would happen.

On nother note, there's also the possiblity that this new party could get folded into the DNVP under Hugenberg. The DNVP were monarchists though, so that could be a major obstacle.

With the DNP's connections to the Volklish Work Community, a non nazi far right movement, I'd say we're definitely looking at another Fascistesque party in the mid term. There was a proposed merger between the DAP, the DSP and the Volkish Work community but Hitler scotched it.

Questions of ideology aside, the new party would be bigger with better infrastructure than the Nazis were at the time of their founding IOTL.


But from what I read, the DNVP was originally monarchist but by the late 1920s had more or less accepted that a restoration of the monarchy was impossible and would accept basically a dictatorship instead (or at least authoritarianism). An early 1920s merger of the DAP and DSP followed by a coalition with the DNVP until the 1930s when they could possibly merge seems possible.
 

Deleted member 94680

Very interesting discussion. Handwaving Hitler out of the DAP (and Captain Mayr's claim seems a little off to me*),

*elsewhere I have read that Mayr claimed that General Ludendorff personally ordered Mayr to have Hitler join the DAP. I suspect the truth is somewhere in between - likely Hitler requested to be able to join the DAP, Mayr considered it and because it was against army regulations for army personnel to engage in political activity, he punted the request up to his superiors (probably along with his recommendation that this be approved because of the potential for better monitoring of the DAP) and it came to Ludendorff who then approved it and sent the approval back down to Mayr who then granted Hitler's request to join as now a directive to join.

As I understand it, Hitler and Mayr were part of an intelligence unit. Their job was to monitor political parties as a military intelligence operation and also probably influenced by the Heer’s view of itself as a “state-within-a-state”.

“After World War I, Hitler returned to Munich. Without formal education or career prospects, he remained in the army. In July 1919 he was appointed Verbindungsmann (intelligence agent) of an Aufklärungskommando (reconnaissance unit) of the Reichswehr, assigned to influence other soldiers and to infiltrate the German Workers' Party (DAP).”
From the wiki page on Hitler seemingly linked to the Kershaw book.
 
As I understand it, Hitler and Mayr were part of an intelligence unit. Their job was to monitor political parties as a military intelligence operation and also probably influenced by the Heer’s view of itself as a “state-within-a-state”.

“After World War I, Hitler returned to Munich. Without formal education or career prospects, he remained in the army. In July 1919 he was appointed Verbindungsmann (intelligence agent) of an Aufklärungskommando (reconnaissance unit) of the Reichswehr, assigned to influence other soldiers and to infiltrate the German Workers' Party (DAP).”
From the wiki page on Hitler seemingly linked to the Kershaw book.

Yes, I saw that. But without the actual regulations for the army as a whole and for the intelligence units, I would have to go off the assumption that the intelligence units would have been tasked with monitoring political parties by having officers attend meetings without necessarily actually becoming formal members of the parties in question. Or it could be that Hitler was allowed to join the party as a part of his role as an intelligence agent but that perhaps he needed permission from Mayr to become a member of the steering committee within the party.
 

Deleted member 94680

Yes, I saw that. But without the actual regulations for the army as a whole and for the intelligence units, I would have to go off the assumption that the intelligence units would have been tasked with monitoring political parties by having officers attend meetings without necessarily actually becoming formal members of the parties in question. Or it could be that Hitler was allowed to join the party as a part of his role as an intelligence agent but that perhaps he needed permission from Mayr to become a member of the steering committee within the party.

I always imagined the application to join the party was to simply keep his actions within the authority of his chain of command. As you say, normal soldiers were unable to join political parties. By applying to join, it shows he was doing something within the realms of his job as an agent. He joined the party “under orders” as it were, then became infatuated with the ideas of the DAP. It’s an element of his life that’s pretty light on detail, as to many the ‘how’ and the ‘why’ of his joining are less important than the fact he joined.
 
But from what I read, the DNVP was originally monarchist but by the late 1920s had more or less accepted that a restoration of the monarchy was impossible and would accept basically a dictatorship instead (or at least authoritarianism). An early 1920s merger of the DAP and DSP followed by a coalition with the DNVP until the 1930s when they could possibly merge seems possible.

The question here is what the DNVP looks like post merger. Considering the history and connections of the early DSP and DAP, their new party could capitalise on support from the volkisch movement, and if they can merge with the DNVP without simply being absorbed, this would mean that they new DNVP would probably be more populist than conservative. Given the fact that the DNVP was originally a conservative movement, it could lead to a split within the new party at some point.

Perhaps here, instead of reaching out to the Nazis' left wing as Schleicher did IOTL when he ffered Gregor Strasser the Vice-Chancellorship, he (or another chancellor) could try the same with disaffected conservative leaders within th DNVP.
 
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