Dread Nought but the Fury of the Seas

[admiral charles]

OK, I can understand not having the funds to build 1 36000 ton ship. The thing is two 23000 ton ships even with reused turrets wont be cheap. Add to that the fact its going to still use up 3 years worth of tonnage allowance and I have to as, exactly how much cash would Italy have saved?.

I can imagine someone in the Italian government will have made this point. A fact the Fascists will have jumped on I would have thought to call for a monster 36000 ton ship. (Also I am assuming that the point of Fascists being involved in the Italian Government is foreshadowing). In fact I find it hard to imagine It was cheaper, you still have to buy 46000 tons of steel to make the two ships minus any weight saved with the re-used turrets, plus build new turrets. Building a single 36000 ton ship must surely have been a cheaper option. I can understand if the only way to get the ships is to sell the idea as 2 small ships with re-used bits is cheaper but surely that argument must have been made by someone. Or was it a way to keep the Fascists happy for a bit and keep dockyard work going? even then though.

Well, you have to bear in mind that even with Caracciolo in service the Italians are at a certain disadvantage, number rise that is, and this ships are more than a round business as a solution to their current issue and one that's useful in the long term, because for the price of one Caracciolo, you could have two battlecruisers to a sound design to fit to your necessities, e.g. extended patrol in Libya or Ethiopia (if it gets conquer, of course), or simply a fast response squadron in this case, which is perfectly understandable given the better standing the battlecruisers have currently in the international stage.

 

[admiral charles]

There's also this Italian design further down the way.

Dimensions: 194,5 x 28,9 x 8m
Displacement: 23.000tons


Engine Power: 150.000shp, 4 shafts
Maximum Speed: 54km/h (29knots)
Armour Thickness: 9.45-inch belt, 5.5 inch decks, 13 - 5.9-inch turrets, 10-inch conning tower.
Armaments:
3x2 381mm Cannons
4x2 152mm Guns
6x2 100mm DP-AA Guns
2 seaplanes

I can't find that much more on her.

That Italian Renown, even with all her probable faults, give me chills bud.

 

[sts-200]

Not to be pedantic but first Greece and Turkey do not share a land border, so have nowhere to skirmish. Except at sea but that's why the Greeks have a British trained fleet. Second no Greek government of the era is going to challenge Italy in such a way for the simple reason that Italy outweighs it 5 to 1, while Greece also has to deal with the Ottomans threatening the east Aegean islands. Not to mention their British unofficial allies would not appreciate it. The Greeks no doubt want the Dodecanese but not at the cost of trying to pick a fight with Italy. I could see the locals petitioning the League of Nations but that's about it.

On the other hand I could easily see Italy trying to bully Greece as a way of recovering prestige after the Slovenian mess, Italy was mildly antagonistic and even expansionist towards Greece well before Mussolini, frex their hopes of taking over Corfu during WW1. So trying something like the OTL Corfu incident is very much possible. Which gets you the same crisis and Salamis embarrassing the Italian navy just as described... then the British show up the Italians back out and build their pair of battleships.

I'll leave the fun of what happens when the Greeks show up in London, sir Basil Zaharoff in tow to order a full battleship or two for later... but I'll note that as early as 1914 they were discussing a Queen Elizabeth clone with British yards. 😇

Yes, it wasn't clear what I meant.
Greece and Turkey do not share a land border as you say. I was thinking of separatists/rebels among the Greek community in Anatolia, acting with Greek support, rather than a 'Greek invasion'. I've changed a few words to make that a bit clearer.
Also perhaps hints that the jackals are starting to circle the Ottoman Empire ... not that it's done yet.

The incident is a bit of a storm in a teacup. At sea, all the Greeks have done is be rather provocative, while making a demand of the Italians (which they know very well won't be agreed). More of a manufactured incident to try to show strength at home, and raise the 'issue' of the Dodecanese on the international stage, rather than a serious attempt to invade or acquire the islands. Still, it gave the Italian fleet a nasty shock.

I'm sure the British would gleefully accept orders! (although ideally of course from both Greeks and Ottomans )

 

[Some Bloke]

Stalin the gangster. Brilliant.

 

[FriendlyGhost]

Apologies if I missed this but have we had the Partition of Ireland? I'm thinking access to the Atlantic ports? Or had that been butterflied away?

Post 2866:

...British solution of an Irish Free State as one that would placate the vocal Irish-American lobby at home. However, the UK successfully retained Ulster, as well as ownership of the naval bases at Berehaven and Queenstown.

and post 2881:

There are only the two treaty ports, and there hasn't been any of the OTL nonsense about trying to negotiate 5-year leases/rights etc...
I'm going to be keeping Ireland very similar, as it would just distract from the story, and I don't see many drivers for change.

 

[sts-200]

But in a way that’s very smart. Challenge the likely challengers, but don’t threaten the Royal Navy. Build a ship or ships that clearly state the Regina Marina is for the defence of Italian interests, but not to attempt to dominate the Mediterranean.

True to an extent but that sort of ship means Britain can't rely on the Orion's and Iron Duke's to control the Mediterranean, it needs to detach at least a pair of battlecruisers to maintain supremacy.

Any new naval building program in the Mediterranean is a threat to the Royal Navy. This ship will be viewed at least initially as a Battlecruiser and that means commerce raiding is on the cards. That is a BIG threat to the royal navy as they only have a few ships that can deal with a ship that fast. As Thoresby points out it requires a first rate prescence in the Med as the older ships cant match it.

I'd say you all had valid points there.
Vesuvio is certainly the Italian Navy accepting 'second tier' status, but is still raising the game.
It's plausibly deniable that these ships are aimed at the British, and while Britain and Italy are fairly friendly, everyone might choose to believe that. Meanwhile, it gives the Italians a bit of leverage.
In other circumstances, a couple of Lutzow-esque ships loose in the Med would pose problems for the RN.

As Thoresby and MarcH say, the RN will have to think about how to react, and there's the real issue with these 'light battleships' - they need a 'proper' battleship to be assured of countering them.

 

[sts-200]

That's a lot of ship for 22500 tonnes. Statistically it's rather close to the Derfflinger class in terms of armour and weapons and length and beam and 4k tonnes lighter and 5.5 knots faster.

Im not saying it's definitely impossible but I (and the Admiralty may concur) am suspicious and don't trust it.

That's fine. As i said its not impossible. It looks suspicious though. It should probably be addressed in story somewhere that there's flaws in the design.

It could be the first warship welded in the world too if it wants that weight. That would be an interesting enough fact that it would make it into the story.

It is quite a well armoured ships for the tonnage. However, bear in mind Derfflinger was about 26,500 tons 'normal' - which would be about 25,500 tons using 'Standard Displacement' rules. Still a 3k gap, but not 4k.
Improvements in machinery would be significant. I don't have my books with me, but IIRC, Derfflinger's machinery was about 3,700 tons, and Vesuvio's heavily forced cruiser machinery could certainly be 1,000 tons less. Add a narrower, lighter hull, unarmoured ends and only 3 main turrets and you are getting close. Then there's the usual trick of a partial ammo load, which buys you another couple of hundred tons.
Then, if they came out a bit overweight at 23,000 tons, it isn't a problem.

She's not welded, we're too early for anyone to stake their bets on that (for a battleship anyway).
With such a narrow beam, torpedo protection isn't going to be up to much, and there is no upper belt, just the (none-too-deep) main one, topped by the armour deck.

 

[Thoresby]

It is quite a well armoured ships for the tonnage. However, bear in mind Derfflinger was about 26,500 tons 'normal' - which would be about 25,500 tons using 'Standard Displacement' rules. Still a 3k gap, but not 4k.
Improvements in machinery would be significant. I don't have my books with me, but IIRC, Derfflinger's machinery was about 3,700 tons, and Vesuvio's heavily forced cruiser machinery could certainly be 1,000 tons less. Add a narrower, lighter hull, unarmoured ends and only 3 main turrets and you are getting close. Then there's the usual trick of a partial ammo load, which buys you another couple of hundred tons.
Then, if they came out a bit overweight at 23,000 tons, it isn't a problem.

She's not welded, we're too early for anyone to stake their bets on that (for a battleship anyway).
With such a narrow beam, torpedo protection isn't going to be up to much, and there is no upper belt, just the (none-too-deep) main one, topped by the armour deck.

That doesn't sound like a ship you'd want to take into a slugging match against a modern opponent but at 31 knots you would have quite a lot of choice about whether you want to engage.

As Thoresby and MarcH say, the RN will have to think about how to react, and there's the real issue with these 'light battleships' - they need a 'proper' battleship to be assured of countering them.

Considering their speed and 12" guns some like this tl's alt-Nelson wouldn't be the ideal counter, too slow to catch them and overkill to fight them. You need a battle cruiser either full fat or light.

 

[lukedalton]

.The incident is a bit of a storm in a teacup. At sea, all the Greeks have done is be rather provocative, while making a demand of the Italians (which they know very well won't be agreed). More of a manufactured incident to try to show strength at home, and raise the 'issue' of the Dodecanese on the international stage, rather than a serious attempt to invade or acquire the islands. Still, it gave the Italian fleet a nasty shock.

The problem for the Greeks it's timing, Italy goverment just come out from negotiation with Jugoslavia and (if all has remained more or less the same) the arab and Senussi that had come out looking weak...so it's not really in the mood for this games and the Salamis making Regia Marina look bad it's just the icing on the cake...basically Rome will be probably on the verge to occupy Corfù (as a start) when the UK put some sense on the Greeks goverment

 

[sts-200]

That doesn't sound like a ship you'd want to take into a slugging match against a modern opponent but at 31 knots you would have quite a lot of choice about whether you want to engage.

Considering their speed and 12" guns some like this tl's alt-Nelson wouldn't be the ideal counter, too slow to catch them and overkill to fight them. You need a battle cruiser either full fat or light.

Definitely not capable against a modern opponent, but fundamentally (allowing for the odd bit of corner-cutting), she's a 12" BC, tolerably well armoured against modern-shell 14" fire. She could stand in an Italian battleline against anything currently in the Med, or rather use her speed to work around the front or rear of an enemy.

The old maxim of 'guns, armour, speed - pick any two' comes back to bite with a vengeance on these 'light battleships'.
A slow one would be a sitting duck, while a fast one is going to be a limited ship - not useless, but certainly not a 'ship of the line'. Other nations will have different flavours, and there's debate around the nature and extent of armour.

The Nelwoods of the story (I do like CV(N)-6's name for them), are definitely for the line, and as you say not ideal for countering this type of ship, which amounts to a Fisherite battlecruiser. Even the bulged Renowns aren't quite as fast as these.
The larger fleets can manage for now, but a worrying precedent has been set.

 

[Deleted member 94680]

There is the potential for the battleship to die out and the battlecruiser to become the “big ship” of the seas. The Great Powers will build “super battlecruisers” (what we know as fast battleships) whereas the Powers and others will build “modern battlecruisers” which are improved in regards to the BCs of OTL but still have the vulnerabilities inherent in the design. Eventually the aircraft carrier will come to dominate (that much is unavoidable, IMHO) but these next generation battlecruisers will find new roles as heavy escorts for the Carriers and even as “super monitors” to support landings by fleets built around a Carrier. Speed will again become a decisive factor and designs will be moulded to reflect this.

Like I say, potential and by no means definite. It’s entirely up to the OP, but it would be an interesting world where Fisher ends up being right, in a manner of speaking.

 

[Thoresby]

There is the potential for the battleship to die out and the battlecruiser to become the “big ship” of the seas. The Great Powers will build “super battlecruisers” (what we know as fast battleships)

A lot of people have argued that the 33 knot OTL Iowa's were armoured battlecruisers rather than "real" battleships especially when considered alongside the Montana's. I suspect the ultimate gun armed capital ship of 1940, built just before carrier primacy stops any future construction with it's 18" guns, 16" belt, 30 knot speed on 60,000 tons will be called a battleship for historical reasons but it in hull form it would have more in common with HMS Tiger than it would with HMS Iron Duke.

 

[Thomas_Wellesley]

Will the second Vesuvio class also be named after a volcano?

 

[sts-200]

There is the potential for the battleship to die out and the battlecruiser to become the “big ship” of the seas. The Great Powers will build “super battlecruisers” (what we know as fast battleships) whereas the Powers and others will build “modern battlecruisers” which are improved in regards to the BCs of OTL but still have the vulnerabilities inherent in the design. Eventually the aircraft carrier will come to dominate (that much is unavoidable, IMHO) but these next generation battlecruisers will find new roles as heavy escorts for the Carriers and even as “super monitors” to support landings by fleets built around a Carrier. Speed will again become a decisive factor and designs will be moulded to reflect this.
...

Definite possibility...
In the Treaty world, the great powers might even want a light BC of their own, not as part of their primary battle fleet but as an adjunct to it, whether that be 'cruisers with teeth', or 'second rate battleships' for lesser stations.

As you say, long term, carriers have numerous advantages, and these might even be more obvious in world where 'eggshells armed with sledgehammers' are more common.
However, IMO that won't start until someone builds a tough aircraft with a 750-hp engine. At that point the carrier can be armed with proper weapons, capable of dropping real bombs or powerful torpedoes at meaningfully greater ranges that gun-armed ships can engage.

...it would be an interesting world where Fisher ends up being right, in a manner of speaking.

Wouldn't it ... but shipwrights will have to think about that one

 

[sts-200]

Will the second Vesuvio class also be named after a volcano?

Yes, Etna.

 

[Thomas_Wellesley]

Yes, Etna.

Good

 

[admiral charles]

Hey guys, check this new collaboration, Drachinifel-Dr Clarke:

British Cruiser Development Between WWI & WWII

 

[admiral charles]

Better like this:

 

[Lascaris]

Yes, it wasn't clear what I meant.
Greece and Turkey do not share a land border as you say. I was thinking of separatists/rebels among the Greek community in Anatolia, acting with Greek support, rather than a 'Greek invasion'. I've changed a few words to make that a bit clearer.
Also perhaps hints that the jackals are starting to circle the Ottoman Empire ... not that it's done yet.

There are still Greeks and Armenians in 1923 Anatolia? While hopefully there wasn't something like the OTL genocide TTL, widespread ethnic cleansing is a given I think, it was already underway in 1914 after all, with over a quarter million Asia Minor Greek refugees reaching Greece and there is clear evidence from the Ottoman archives that the Young Turks planned on eliminating their Christian minorities well ahead of the war. Lots and lots of refugees that won't like the regime in Constantinople granted.

And the only place where there was armed resistance OTL was the guerrilla movement in the Pontus mountains, which can be supported only by way of Russia given geography...

The incident is a bit of a storm in a teacup. At sea, all the Greeks have done is be rather provocative, while making a demand of the Italians (which they know very well won't be agreed). More of a manufactured incident to try to show strength at home, and raise the 'issue' of the Dodecanese on the international stage, rather than a serious attempt to invade or acquire the islands. Still, it gave the Italian fleet a nasty shock.

Perhaps but it is still not in character for either Venizelos or Dragoumis and Gounaris, who'd be the more likely leaders of the antivenizelists.

I'm sure the British would gleefully accept orders! (although ideally of course from both Greeks and Ottomans )

The Greeks need one or two ships to replace their couple of pre-dreadnoughts, plus cruisers, destroyer and submarines. In OTL the British naval mission under admiral Kelly in 1920 was proposing getting from British stocks 4 C class cruisers, 10 S class destroyers and 12 H class submarines. Which would had put the Greek navy at 2 battleships, 6 cruisers, 24 destroyers (8 of them small 400 tonners) and 12 submarines.

Sans the large number of cruisers this is not substantially different from the Greek pre-war plans. (3 battleships, 4 cruisers, plus the DDs and submarines). By 1929 the navy still wanted to get 3 destroyer flottilas, the subs, a substantially modernized Salamis (27 knots, 5in deck, modern TDS and secondaries) plus eventually getting a couple heavy cruisers to replace the existing ones). After the naval treaties with Turkey, the naval program settled to 2 destroyer flottilas, though the heavy unit was back by the mid 30s (by then as a 18,500t cruiser killer to hunt down Italian cruisers, making 34kts with 6x10in and armored against 280mm guns... the last was of course accidental not someone being careful about Yavuz without saying it no sir)

I doubt the RN would be willing to hand over the numbers of ships Kelly was proposing, but they are indicative of the Greeks end goals, particularly since TTL they have roughly twice OTLs GDP without the Asia Minor war. And at least the two Chesters and 4 M class DDs the Greeks had ordered pre war were offered at scrap metal prices and would be most useful alongside Salamis.

 

[sts-200]

There are still Greeks and Armenians in 1923 Anatolia? While hopefully there wasn't something like the OTL genocide TTL, widespread ethnic cleansing is a given I think, it was already underway in 1914 after all, with over a quarter million Asia Minor Greek refugees reaching Greece and there is clear evidence from the Ottoman archives that the Young Turks planned on eliminating their Christian minorities well ahead of the war. Lots and lots of refugees that won't like the regime in Constantinople granted.

And the only place where there was armed resistance OTL was the guerrilla movement in the Pontus mountains, which can be supported only by way of Russia given geography...

That's what I imagine, given a shorter war in which Turkey did not take part. There would therefore be less perceived need or justification to expel/kill those 'enemies'.
Given the situation and history, I sure there would still be plenty of antagonism, raids and doubtless events that would be considered as genocide, but I regard that as a reason for the locals to fight - given that they have some Greek (and they hope international) support.
On that coastline, supporting a 'resistance movement' style via small boats would be fairly reasonable - alongside the usual smuggling of course.